Nicolette Jackson 0:00
If you are bought into me as a candidate and as somebody that you would want to be in the seat, then I’m going to ask you for something big. I’m going to ask you for an advisor to help me through this. I also negotiated that Lorraine come as a formal paid advisor, right like that she would be a part of my offer.

Rob Stevenson 0:25
Welcome to Talk Talent to me, a podcast featuring the most elite talent leaders on the front lines of modern recruitment.

Speaker 2 0:32
We actually want to understand the themes of someone’s life, we want to understand how they make decisions where they’re willing to take risks, and what it looks like when they fail,

Rob Stevenson 0:42
no holds barred completely off the cuff interviews with directors of recruitment to VPs of global talent, CHROs, and everyone in between.

speaker 3 0:50
Once I went through the classes and the trainings and got the certifications through diversity inclusion, I still felt like something was missing.

Speaker 2 1:00
Talent Acquisition it’s a fantastic career, you are trusted by the organization. You get to work with the C suite and the security at the front desk and everybody in between and everybody knows you.

Rob Stevenson 1:11
I’m your host, Rob Stevenson. And you’re about to hear the best in the biz. talk down to me. Oh, right. Here we go. Again, back here at top talent. To me, it’s me your host Rob with another classic installment of your favorite recruiting show. I’m here with a wonderful guest. She is the head of talent over at Zephyr Nicolette Jackson. Nicolette, welcome to you. How are you today?

Nicolette Jackson 1:34
Doing well excited to chat?

Rob Stevenson 1:36
I am as well. We just fell prey to my favorite thing, which is that we were having so much fun goofing off before the recording. I said, No, we have to stop. We have to, we have to do a podcast we have to quit giving up. But I’m having a lot of fun already chatting with you, Nicola, and we’re going to recreate it here, I’m sure when we get into the HR in town stuff. But before we do, I would just love to know a little bit about Zephyr, the company and then you have an interesting background yourself. So can we just get a little a bit of the Nicoletta of it all before we dive into the weeds here,

Nicolette Jackson 2:05
right? Yes, so I am at Zephyr. Zephyr is perfecting the Home Services experience from the inside out. And we do this by investing heavily in our technicians. We acquire H fac plumbing and electrical companies and we bring them on to our platform. Again, our main focus is really creating the best place for technicians to practice their craft by investing in technology and talent development practices. And that’s exactly where my team and myself come in. We are building a recruiting engine as well as an environment that fosters growth for our technicians. And we’re really excited about it. And how I got here was a pretty interesting journey. Over time, I have wanted and dreamed of becoming Chief People Officer. I’ve always loved that office and was in a recruiting track. And I thought, Man, I’m gonna have to spend years switching over into the HR space and doing all these things. But lucky for me, I built my career in startups meaning I was the first ever HR hire and a lot of places that I’ve been including hippo insurance, which was a classic example of me coming in being the first HR hire and then building out recruiting from scratch. Anyone who’s done that also knows that you learned a lot along the way as far as partnership and becoming a strong HR business partner along the way. And so built my career in real estate insurance tech. And when I was most recently at a company called orchard, I really fell in love with the chief people officer and just everything that she had built, the people she built around her. And her demeanor in general just was really impressive. And so when my time there wound down, I said, I really want to keep in touch. I really love that our private equity firm brought her to the table, right? They really would challenged her at the board meetings about engagement and the questions they were asking, I was like, wow, this is a firm that really does care about and this is juxtaposed by the way to give them a good plug. They care about the actual talent, the talent development, which is a rarity. And so I asked, Can we please keep in touch, and they did. They called me once the Zephyr was incubated and ready to go. They found a CEO and they introduced me to him. And the great part about it is they also let me keep Lorraine as my advisor. And we can get into how I was able to formalize that which was really a credit to them and me along in my new path to Chief People Officer.

Rob Stevenson 4:55
This chief people officer who you are so fond of you Lorraine behenic Is her name and she was recently on this podcast. So as we continue talking about how great she is, I imagine listeners will maybe want to go back and listen to what she had to say. But I love hearing that story that you were just really enamored of her effectiveness and the way she operated in the role that made you want to be a chief people officer. What was it like viewing her role? Like when you say she kind of had a seat at the table? How was that apparent to you?

Nicolette Jackson 5:24
Well, I’ve been in many startups, right, where the board really doesn’t even ask any questions about HR, right? The board meetings are strictly focused on financials, financial health, sales, those types of things. When I got to Orchard I realized that Lorraine was at every board meeting and was being accountable for engagement, right. And then the things that were all things culture, and it wasn’t just a very soft skills, things that they looked at as kind of something on the backburner. It was at the forefront of their strategy. And she was held accountable to that. And I love the fact that she made it a business metric. i It was very hard for me sometimes when you’re sitting there and you’re like, Okay, when you talk about people, sometimes it’s really harder to quantify, but to learn from her, no, you can put metrics on people’s satisfaction, right? And those types of things and become a partner at the table. That was impressive to me. And that’s how it was apparent is like the board actually cared about these things. She was present. And she did a lot of work to make sure that she was an equal partner at that table.

Rob Stevenson 6:32
Do you know what kind of things the board would ask?

Nicolette Jackson 6:35
Yes, they were very interested in engagement and how that played into behaviors. Right? And like, you know, are we seeing this marketing issue as a challenge? Because of certain themes? Do we need to dive deeper, there was even a time in which, you know, she helped them see how to optimize the home advisor position, which was a real estate position. But those are the types of things she was able to get into, because you’d look at the business metrics, and then they could say, you know, the culture was also integral to those things. And so the fact that they looked at the outside factors, I think, was, you’re very interesting to me. Plus, if you ever looked at the Juxtapoz, like page, they’re very, very, I would think, thought leaders very much about thought leaders of the talent development space and how they think of things.

Rob Stevenson 7:23
What was it that made you want to be Chief People Officer, besides thinking Lorraine was awesome?

Nicolette Jackson 7:31
Well, I’ll take you back to the very beginning, right? I’m a black, Hispanic female. And when I was a little girl, I watched my dad lose his job. He had had like a really great job in the 90s. Right. And then he was made it to director level. And then there was a downturn. And he was searching for his job during that time. And I remember being able to go with him to interviews. And I was able to see very quickly that like, it was rough, right, he would show up with me, it was a little girl and sit in the office with the receptionist, and he’d go in there. And getting a job was so hard. I used to think I would love to be the person that gave these opportunities, like whoever my dad’s meeting within there that’s judging him as a black man in the 90s. I wish like they could see all the things that I see in him as a human. So when I figured out what recruiting was way later in life, I was like, wow, that was an actual job. And then I was like, well, when he got there, I realized he was just so undervalued. And I wish that there were resources for him and growth and things that I now take for granted. And so when I realized that recruiting was one side, right, bringing people in, but then also how to grow them and make them happy while they were there as the whole other side of the spectrum, and to truly be happy and recruiting, right. I feel like I also wanted to have a say so on how people were treated once they were in the door. And it’s really hard to only feed people to an organization and then not be able to influence the culture. And I thought the Chief People Officer title responsibility, right, is what I was asking for. Right? I wanted the responsibility of cultivating culture, giving people resources, and being accountable to the people once I recruited them. So that’s really I think, the appeal of it for me,

Rob Stevenson 9:30
the need to care for and plan for people’s careers and time at your company, past the hire date, that feels like it is being dragged more into the domain of recruiters, even though it’s not necessarily in their job description. I think the really smart ones realize, well, if it doesn’t work out for them here, I’m right back where I started, and I’ve done this person a disservice by bringing them into this organization to begin with. So it feels like you While a recruiter has maybe not compensated for that, you know, and does not have those responsibilities codified, it is an important part of the role. And it sounds like that’s kind of what you’re doing. Even though you’re not quite yet chief of people. Is that fair to say?

Nicolette Jackson 10:12
Oh, yes. So the head of talent job at Zephyr is all encompassing and leading HR recruiting. And it’s honestly, archetype that came from juxtapose they felt like, if someone’s capable of recruiting with its startups that they could also build out the different pieces with guidance. And that’s where my formal advisor came into play. Right? When I accepted this job, I knew that I had some gaps, right. And like I had not ever selected benefits or done a benefit strategy or done some of the things that I had been witnessed to my entire career and definitely contributed to. But being at the helm of that was a very big step. And so when I spoke to the CEO, I made it clear, there was a couple of things happening in my life at that point. After I wound down in orchard, I actually found out I was pregnant, it was even more of a need to find a career home. And when I presented to him, I said, Look, I’m literally going through the craziest year of my life. So I’m going to become a mom, I’m going to be in a new position. There’s a lot of things and changes that I’m going to have to navigate. And I need help. And so if you are bought into me as a candidate, and as somebody that you would want to be in the seat, then I’m going to ask you for something big, I’m going to ask you for an advisor to help me through this. And because I’m such a firm believer in people being compensated for their wisdoms, I also negotiated that Lorraine come as a formal paid advisor, right like that she would be a part of, you know, what I consider my offer. If I’m gonna come on board, it would be really cool to stay one, you know, close to this leader and to to have, you know, it’s a credit to you. All right, you’re getting a Lorraine level advice in situations when I’m feeling like I don’t yet have that exposure. And so it all made sense to them. And it all worked out. And actually she ended up joining juxtapose. So now she is paid and compensated separately, like so we didn’t have to do that that long. But either way, I feel that if anyone is in that talent seat, and you’re like, I’m a recruiter, how can I make that shift? Right, start to think about ways in which you know, especially when you’re posing to a new employer, hey, I’m being open, honest and self aware of my opportunities here, I would really love help and support and what better way I was looking at another opportunity to and the moment they said, Yes, you’ll have a formal advisor, this is the way I went and have never looked back, since it was definitely clear that they support me from jump, which was great.

Rob Stevenson 12:53
I love this story. One that you were able to negotiate what is an abnormal part of a job offer, as far as I’ve heard, having the advisor brought in and compensated by your company. And to they went for it because having a professional career advisor or mentor is something that you are told to go out and find by your company, all the time, people are saying like, Oh, you need to have this career mentor, it’s important, that’s not your boss, or someone within the organization, you should have this person, but then it’s expected to be performed out of the kindness of that individual’s own heart, you know, like, they’re not going to be paid for it, they’re just going to take on a mentor mentee relationship, because they want to give back or something. And so to actually codify it and pay that person, I think it’s great. Also, a friend of mine works at a large finance company. And her career coach is like a perk of working there like they, there’s some service they work through, and then you can match with a coach and then they pay for it, that person doesn’t work for the company. And so that’s like a normal perk, and you just kind of brought it in with you. And so I want to speak about like the mentor mentee relationship a little bit. But first, just a reminder that there are so many things on the table when you are negotiating a job offer, or rather, so many things that you may put on the table. So I don’t know, like what gave you the I don’t want to say what gave you the nerve, but like, it’s such a unique thing to do. So what made you think like, Okay, I’m gonna go ask for this and I feel confident and justified in my ability to ask for it.

Nicolette Jackson 14:21
Because I’m a recruiter, and people do not hesitate to ask for everything. And quite frankly, I’m gonna be blunt in this answer. minorities, women, right? People that come from different socioeconomic backgrounds, ask for less constantly. They really are very conscious and feel as if, and so I watched those behaviors. We’ve all been in negotiation conversations as recruiters, right? And who gets the oil, the squeaky wheel. Honestly the people that asked for the things they want. I’m sorry, I’m going to call out. White males have no qualms asking for or anything under the sun, you know, triple digits, you know all the things that they want, right? And so how I learned was watching their confidence and saying, You know what? Why don’t I believe in myself as much as they’re believing in themselves. And quite frankly, I’ve been honestly sometimes more of a candidate advocate than a company advocate in those situations, right, I will tell a woman in a situation you’re not asking for enough here, especially if our numbers and what we’re willing to pay or dividends ahead. I know, that’s not a popular opinion to say, as a recruiter, but I feel like as the black Hispanic female in the room, I have to sometimes give that education because people just won’t ask. And they end up in a situation where once you’re in, it’s much harder to negotiate. And so I love to give people that leg up. And in the time of offer, be brave, to ask for what you want, and show that you’re self aware. Right, I was coming to them very humbly saying, this is a big jump for me. Like, I will need the guidance. But if you believe in me, and you’ve already chosen me, and we’re already at this stage, then why not continuing, we’re all going to continue to have to pour into each other, right. And this is just an extra step in that. And so I just think women, especially should be more brave when negotiating these things. It’s a very vulnerable place to be, but lean into all of the conversations you’ve had as a recruiter, right? You know, these people, you know, and I’ve always been impressed by them. Over time, I’ve seen them, ask and negotiate for everything. And so that’s where I got the competence.

Rob Stevenson 16:49
I’m glad you gave that advice to be brave. It’s so true. And like, people are scared of asking for something, but they need to know that the offer is not going to go away. Unless you are completely way off in terms of compensation, or you’re just completely unreasonable in negotiation. The worst thing they say is no, if you ask for something, they might say no, and they’re not just gonna be like, we’re not getting that and also offer withdrawn. Like, that’s, that’s not gonna happen, you know. And so you will be surprised at what you get in the worst case is typically that they just say no, and you’re right where you were before you asked, but to kind of expound on what you said, a little bit like I was taught as a young, white male, it was taught by an older white male, to ask for more in offering negotiations. And I remember exactly what he said to me, he said, that first offer, they give you whatever number they say, I’m telling you, there’s always a little gas left in the tank, meaning like, they don’t give you their best offer, there’s room above it, ask for more and see what they say. And so I started asking for, you know, 510 15k, more just a matter of principle, I didn’t matter what they say, I’m just going to ask him for 15k more and see what happens. And guess what, like every single time they came up, and I would not have known that if I wasn’t drinking buddies with a VP level guy. So that that isn’t affected my privilege, but it wasn’t just like this misplaced competence of waking up and like, I’m awesome, I should ask for more money, it was being told by someone in a powerful position that I could do it.

Nicolette Jackson 18:10
Right. It’s absolutely true. And most of the time, as minorities, we’re actually told to just be grateful for what we have. And that guilt is there. I have a Hispanic grandmother, that still admonishes me for having the made. Like, why do I need to feel guilty about that? I, you know, I don’t know. But you know, those are the types of things that you are ingrained in you in these cultures of like, Hey, you should be grateful, and you know, those types of things. It’s, yes, you absolutely should. But you also shouldn’t let you hurt your growth and your ability to ask for more, get more out of a situation because you’re just as deserving right? If somebody is making you an offer, they see your talent, they want your talent, why not, you know, make sure that you’re getting what you need out of the situation,

Rob Stevenson 18:59
of course, and whether that’s an extra few grand on top of your salary, or whether it’s an advisor, like in your case, it’s such a reasonable request, making the advisor request, because like you say, it’s like this is going to help make me better at my job. Like, look at this person who I’m speaking about, surely you want me to have them on board, right? And so it makes all the sense in the world, it’s just I’d never heard of it before. It’s such a creative use of the negotiation opportunity. So that’s why I wanted to hear more about it. And I recommend other people you know, as much as you can try and get this codified try and get your your company to help you out with those because they should want you to have this because it means you’re going to be better at your job.

Nicolette Jackson 19:35
Right? They get something out of it completely. Like it’s not a completely selfish act. Right. And, and so sometimes a company will come to you and say like, we don’t have additional budget to increase your offer, right? You can always think of things that are not cost, you know, prohibitive to like, come back with as well right? Well then, can I have extra Time, right in a week, maybe I have a two hour block that I can go meet with a mentor. Great because that’s time consuming to write. And even just to have the time to spend with someone is a gift and a blessing in some in some cases. And so if it is coming to a point where the resources are not able to be there, you can always get creative and just say, Okay, well, then maybe I’ll set a different expectation around my time that would make up for it.

Rob Stevenson 20:27
Definitely. I don’t want to breach mentor mentee confidentiality here. I would love to know a little bit about the nature of that relationship. What are the kinds of things you you come to Lorain with?

Nicolette Jackson 20:39
Oh, at first it was imposter syndrome. Like I was in a space in my life where I just didn’t really believe so much in my leadership as and when I saw the confidence in which she operated in the things that she knew, like I said, it was very much something I wanted to emulate. And at first, it wasn’t a lot about like, Okay, let’s look at these things that you need to develop, or the things that you needed to learn, it was much more about making me a whole person and like understanding where, honestly, the opportunities for my growth were and what was holding me back, right. And it was a lot of therapy, honestly, like looking at, you know, the concepts of what I had carried as a child, right and turned into this imposter syndrome, what I was trying to protect myself from, by not pursuing certain opportunities for leadership, there was a lot more in there that she poured into me, versus honestly just going to the black and white like, these are the things that you need to learn to be a chief people officer, it was much more about making me whole as a person and building up the confidence in me to then pursue those things. Now, it was very much a breakthrough for me, too. She’s in the opposite realm than me, she’s a white female who has attained really amazing success in her career. And she herself saw the value that she could bring to my life and people like mine. So I’m not her only mentee, that benefits from her amazing advice and the things that she brings to the table. It’s something that she sees as valuable to build in, you know, minority women and people that are marginalized. And so it’s just a perfect match. And most of what we work on day to day now is I’m in the thick of the role, right? And so I bring to her themes and things. And she’s mostly a sounding board for what I’m doing. And as I’m starting to work with her, my training wheels are off before it was much a lot of like, I’m gonna do this, should I do this? Let me plan it and run it by you. And now it’s, Hey, I did this thing. I want to talk to you about the results. And I’m getting more and more brave in my decision making ability. After I’ve had that sounding board for a minute or two, you know, and so I think most of what we work on now is just real world advice on like, how am I moving through things? And how do I push the envelope further and start to think of I mean, she told me the other day about some of the pieces of CPO work that I will be exposed to but it’s not something I could get, other than with time spent in the seat, right? And just lessons learned along the way, which is really great. As an older sister, like, I wish that my younger sisters would my advice the way I listened to that’s how I would explain the relationship.

Rob Stevenson 23:52
What was her anti impostor syndrome,

Nicolette Jackson 23:56
pep talk was actually a concept, whole other podcast. It’s really about how your inner child really tries to protect yourself. And through that act, those fears stick with you. And so when you try to do something brave, like I don’t know, for me spreadsheets, let’s be real. I’m a people person. Spreadsheets are like the opposite of what I’m good at and math and all of those things. But why I think that is because I had this teacher back in elementary school that made it clear my strength was not math. So you almost like gave up on me. It was kind of like you are definitely stronger in these other subjects. And so it honestly stuck to me and the concept of calling that out when I’m feeling really scared or apprehensive about something right and saying, Oh, when I was a child, it was trying to protect me from embarrassment and all of those things that you know were absolutely necessary but as an adult, it’s actually holding me back because I’m not a little girl anymore. I am fully K trouble of getting into a spreadsheet, and asking questions and asking for help and doing the things that I need to do. And so thank you, teacher that used to tell me all of those things, but that’s not relevant information now. So it’s really beautiful way of thinking through your fears when you’re about to do something scary. And new, because nothing that I’ve done in this life that it made me successful, was ever comfortable. Ever, you know, it was never, it’s always been uncomfortable, it’s always been a challenge, and how to move past that and appreciate my inner child for trying to protect myself, but also realizing it’s no longer relevant, and I’m safe in the space that I am in learning and growing,

Rob Stevenson 25:49
you have a lot more of a gracious perspective on that. I wouldn’t your shoes, where this teacher tells you this thing about yourself as a child that you then believed, and then that you then like, made part of who you were. And I hear this all the time from various kinds of people. I’m just not a numbers person. I’m not a math person. I’m not like this kind of person. I’m more analytical. I’m not like words, and blah, blah, like, No, you probably just in next time, whatever you were slightly more inclined to as a child. And now you’ve just believed this to be true. There’s these limiting beliefs we have about ourselves. It all stems back to childhood. I know. But it is good advice that she gave you. So I’m glad you had that. Well, I mean, it’s crazy how common imposter syndrome is, you know, and some of the really smart, effective people I know, reports me that they have impostor syndrome, I’ve struggled with it myself, too. For me, it just got to the point where I was like, Okay, I’ve had enough jobs, you know, I have enough experience where it’s like, I can get another one. There’s a reason why I’m getting all these offers, like, what’s more likely that I’ve just fooled all of these people, or that I can accomplish something that is valuable in a professional stance. So but it took years, right? It took years of like, getting that point in my career?

Nicolette Jackson 27:03
Absolutely. And how to make especially in talent, right, and recruiting, how to make what you do quantifiable, right. And measurable, I think, was also a really good input, right is the moment that I could start to paint my own data journey and say, Wow, my time to close is only 38 days as opposed to like, you know, and it goes, right, it really did start to build my confidence. At first I thought it was just Oh, no, like, it’s going to pull back this smokescreen to see like, Oh, you’re always afraid of the numbers and afraid of the metrics and afraid of all those things. But then I started realize I’m the type of person if you give me a bar, I’m going to jump over it. And that was the strength that I needed to like, move past a lot of those things, was to measure what I thought was a very kind of soft and squishy hard to measure thing, right. And then recruiting, definitely, I feel now has those data journeys in place. And you can use metrics built by other people to build that confidence. But on the HR side, right, I’m starting to learn those things and building those things along the way. And it’s absolutely the more you measure, the more confident you can feel in your abilities to overcome hard things in the future.

Rob Stevenson 28:20
What are some of the ways you’re quantifying the role right now? Right

Nicolette Jackson 28:24
now, after year one, right, I’ve completed my year in February, and I am learning how the business is reacting. So for instance, how I measure things right now, in a time that we don’t have like a ton of things built out that they’re actually like this you’re going to be put into place is things like, Are my general managers using the PIP process? Do they strongly negotiate their offers and understand the benefits that we’ve put into place? Can I call a manager and ask them, you know, what are the benefits and get they explained those things? Right? It’s much more like, is there a sense of awareness of the of the things that we’ve built? And then are we also aware of the things that need to be built in, you know, and kind of keeping a safe space for that, but I think that’s really, to me, the measures that I’m using after year one is like, okay, are all the things that we kind of put into play? Are they being utilized? And am I seeing that happen? And are people calling me and asking the right questions, right? Are they calling in, they know where to go for development plans, they know where to go, if somebody’s not performing? Well, they know where to go if the search isn’t, you know, working out or getting the candidates that they need. It’s much more about showing up as their business partner and those are the behaviors that I need to reinforce that yes, I’m, I’m a good business partner because they know what to call me for if that makes sense. Now that I’m going into your to write putting those things into SOPs and you know codifying them and making sure that they live on beyond is much more of a focus. But in the year one, yes, we built a lot in this years, the measurement is did they use what we built, and then reiterating on those things going forward,

Rob Stevenson 30:21
I really like that perspective on your role, taking into account the way people wish to work with you and what they bring to you. It’s a good measure of how you’ve been able to kind of paint yourself in the organization. Like if someone just comes to you and hands you a job description and is like, Here, go hire this role, you know, you’re a little bit of an order taker. But if they come to you in other ways that you’ve trained them in which to come to you for these things, okay, then they know how to use you strategically, or they view you as the strategic person, it feels like an important gut check to take when you’re trying to put together where you stand in the organization.

Nicolette Jackson 30:57
Absolutely. I think as recruiters, I started to learn that I wanted to be a business partner. And I wanted to be seen as that the order taker, quite frankly, that role is the most ineffective role, right? It’s, you, as a recruiter, have to believe in your honestly, synopsis of the business, your experience, the relationships, that you’ve built, your knowledge of the talent realm, right enough that when someone comes to you and says go to the grocery store without a list, you’re like, not happening, right? You know, I can’t tell you the amount of times the hiring manager will say, Oh, I just want something sweet to go to the store, find it. And I’m in that store for hours. And I come out looking like, honestly, not a very strong business partner, it’s very easy for them to turn that situation around on me and say, I told her what I wanted, and she wasn’t capable of finding it right? And so turning it around on them and saying, No, you make that list, you come to me and I will actually give you my opinion on that list before we go to market with it is I think how you raise your stakes, right? And you start to really push back on them. Because ultimately, they do want something from you, right? And so you can leverage that to show up as a better partner. Whether or not they’re receptive, right, you’ll never know you’re dealing with people, right. But if you have your own standard and how you operate, they start to really understand that they’re not going to get around that, right oh, this person knows the business and they want to be involved, and they’re going to have opinions. This isn’t just a go do what I tell you to do situation.

Rob Stevenson 32:42
I love that metaphor of, oh, I just want something sweet. And then it’s like, oh, well, I’m gonna I’ll get you something sweet. But it may not be exactly what you wanted. And you need to ask for what you want. Or depending on how gracious you are, you could help them figure it out. Right? I think that’s probably more of the role is like, Okay, well, do you want a cinnamon roll? Or do you want like candy? Those are two very different things.

Nicolette Jackson 33:03
Let’s decide on a profile together, right? Like, those are the types of partnership things that they’re like, impressed by, honestly. So you meet so many leaders that want to bulldoze. And like when you actually come back to them and say, No, this is my process. I’m the captain now. They’re very much intrigued. So I think I just would advise recruiters to lean into that part of themselves and be confident in their knowledge of the talent, atmosphere guide their hiring managers to success. You know, I don’t know of one single chief revenue officer that I’ve worked with that I’ve been able to come to him and say, This is how you’re going to sell you they own their expertise. You can own yours. And I think that’s a beautiful thing to do for a business.

Rob Stevenson 33:47
Yep, absolutely. It’s a great point. It’s great advice. And Nicolette, we are creeping up on optimal podcast length here. So I have to wish you a good week and a good day. But for now this has been wonderful. Thank you so much for being here and sharing your your journey with me I can see why Zephyr was keen to bring you and your mentor onboard. So thank you so much for being with me on the show today.

Nicolette Jackson 34:07
Thank you for having me.

Rob Stevenson 34:12
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