Pearson CHRO Ali Bebo

Ali BeboPearson CHRO Ali Bebo

In talent acquisition, Ali Bebo of Pearson stresses balancing present strategies with future-proofing. She discusses her journey from retail to senior CHRO, the impact of AI, and the importance of upscaling talent. Ali draws parallels between sports coaching and talent recruitment, sharing insights on proactive team-building. The episode explores her involvement in hiring a new CEO at Pearson, ending with Ali’s advice on recognizing your superpower.

Episode Transcript

Rob Stevenson 0:05
Welcome to talk talent to me, a podcast featuring the most elite talent leaders on the front lines with modern recruitment.

Speaker 2 0:12
We actually want to understand the themes of someone’s life, we want to understand how they make decisions where they’re willing to take risks and what it looks like when they fail.

Rob Stevenson 0:21
No holds barred completely off the cuff interviews with directors of recruitment VPs of global talent, CHR rows, and everyone in between.

Speaker 1 0:31
Once I went through the classes and the trainings and got the certifications through diversity and inclusion, I still felt like something was missing.

Ali Bebo 0:39
Talent Acquisition. It’s a fantastic career, you are trusted by the organization. You get to work with the C suite and the security at the front desk and everybody in between and everybody knows you.

Rob Stevenson 0:52
I’m your host, Rob Stevenson. And you’re about to hear the best in the biz. talk down to me. All right. Hello. Again, all of you wonderful talent acquiring recruiting Human Resources darlings out there in podcast land. It’s me, Rob, here for the first episode of 2024 on top talent to me, and we are kicking the year off in some style. I have to say here with the CHR o over at Pearson Ali Bebo. Ali, welcome to the podcast. How are you today?

Ali Bebo 1:20
I’m great. Thank you can’t believe it’s already a new year.

Rob Stevenson 1:24
I know. It is that time of the year where we are deciding what new behaviors we’d like to emphasize between January 2 and 10th. And then promptly abandon.

Ali Bebo 1:37
It is about eight days before we get rid of our of our

Rob Stevenson 1:40
where we remember who we really are deep down. Exactly like to do new year’s resolutions? Or do you just kind of do annual reviews? Or what is your typical process this time of the year?

Ali Bebo 1:50
Oh, gosh, do I do a New Year’s resolution. I’m not one to write anything down. It’s probably an interesting trade of mine. I’m not a big list writer. But I do spend time reflecting, I spend time thinking about what I did and accomplished in 23. And I almost think of it as a little bit of a reset with a view that there are things you’re going to carry forward as a 24 that worked for you and you’ve got areas to improve on. But I don’t really think of it as a let’s start fresh, more of a let’s continue the story and continue to write the next chapter. And so that’s my view. I think my interesting trade is I’m not a to do list maker. Doer, I just do Yeah.

Rob Stevenson 2:40
How do you keep track of all the stuff you have to do?

Ali Bebo 2:44
I don’t know, I tend to think about it in the context of goals achieved. So when I go out and think about something I want to do, I probably know that I’ve done it when the goals been hit. But I don’t necessarily track all the how tos are the sort of method to my madness. But that’s a great, gosh, I don’t know, that might be a real good self reflection exercise for 2020 24. How do I actually do what I do?

Rob Stevenson 3:15
Well, we’re gonna get into that here today. And I don’t need to give you homework, I don’t mean to send you off was like, oh, gosh, how does this work?

Ali Bebo 3:23
I am a learner. I do constantly like to learn more about myself. So it sort of keeps me on my toes and just learn new things.

Rob Stevenson 3:30
I’m like you in that I don’t view it as like, oh, fresh start like new year new me. I’m not like that kind of, you know, maybe now that I’m in my 30s. Like me, like I’ve I’ve told myself that lie enough times where I’m like, You know what, no, let’s just let’s be a little more reasonable. But yeah, I don’t like to set specific goals either just because goals tend to change throughout the course of the year, you know, and then if your goal changes, and that means you didn’t accomplish it, then technically you failed if you wrote that goal down with the intent of like, but if goals change, then they haven’t like I don’t know, it’s, I think more important to decide on behaviors and values than it is on specific outcomes.

Ali Bebo 4:06
I think that’s a great point, Rob, because that’s where you have continuity, where you anchor what you do based off of kind of what you believe are your best traits, and you want to, you know, kind of lean into those. But I love this idea of sort of staying true to principles and values as you approach work. And in many ways that becomes really easy for those that work with you to understand what you’re going to do, how you’re going to decide different ways of approaching a situation. So yeah, there’s there’s an interesting kind of concept there.

Rob Stevenson 4:42
Definitely. Is that kind of how you have structured your own career. You have this, you have this big job. I kinda want to jump into it right. You’re the CHRO of the largest education company on planet Earth. Pearson. So, right.

Ali Bebo 4:55
Great attribute. Thank you. Yes.

Rob Stevenson 4:58
Do y’all need copywriters

Ali Bebo 5:02
There’s definitely probably a role for that somewhere in our in our organization, we’ve got lots of opportunities here. You would, I

Rob Stevenson 5:07
suppose, be the person to talk to about it. We should talk later. Exactly. It’s a big job, though. And so yeah, let’s get into it. I guess I’d love to know how you came to be in this role. And then maybe we can get into how you do what you do, Ali, not to gas you up too much. But you know, sir, was just a little bit about you and your background, how’d you wind up in this job,

Ali Bebo 5:27
I was not looking for this role. And never even thought this would be a role that I would be in the future. When I was getting out of college, I really found the things that I liked to do early on. And oddly, it was it was working with people working with customers. And I found myself starting out in retail, and working in sales, working in management and retail. And I really enjoyed the pace of it, the diversity every day was different. I love the interaction with people and seeing how, you know customer walking in how we can kind of just understand what they’re looking for and quickly assess and, and sort of help them walk out of the store with a great wardrobe where they can feel really good about themselves the next time they show up for a meeting or an event. But I I didn’t realize at the time that I sort of had a knack for recruiting great people to work in the stores I was working in and kind of combining different team formations. So in stores, you have a store manager or assistant manager, you’ve got different floor supervisors as an example. And I just love seeing how different combinations of people can come together and create a great mini culture and in their store. And I was tapped on the shoulder to head up a are actually built from scratch a recruiting function in a newly formed retail brand, which is now called loft. It’s a brand of Annie Inc, which at the time, was born out of the Ann Taylor brand. And we were really just thinking about the opportunity to bring this new fashion into the market, and needed to build stores to bring that new fashion to the market. And they asked me to help recruit for all the stores that were opening up. And at the time, I thought, wow, that’s really cool. This is a new experience I talked about I love to learn, learn new things, that this would be a new set of skills that I can bring forward in the future and into a different business context. Frankly, I thought I’d always go back into the business. And I just fell in love with human resources and with talent and thinking about, as I said before, the things I didn’t know I was pretty good at which is you know, helping people find their fit, find their great career opportunity where they can perform and grow and ultimately, ideally, stay in a company that really gets the best out of them. So I ended up staying there at an inc for quite a few years and had a lot of different roles in human resources. And whether it was talent management, talent acquisition in the roles, a business partner and just fell in love with it. And I was tapped on the shoulder by someone who said would you like to join this organization, the CEO is building a team of top talent and it was the role of, of senior vice president of HR is essentially a CH a row role. And said, Okay, I’m interested and took that opportunity, jumped in feet first headfirst, and really just fell in love with, again, similar trends, the diversity of the opportunity and the role that I’m in now. I get to play in talent acquisition, like it’s a play in l&d, I spend time thinking about total rewards and how we reward people for performance and think about well being and all the different ways in which again, we’re trying to build careers for people to really put their talents to work. And so just really fell in love with it and have now had two opportunities as a CFO now with Pearson, I’m loving it. So good fun. Every day is different new challenges, new goals, new ambitions, and really just trying to help organizations kind of be the best versions of themselves and deliver on the strategy and certainly, ideally deliver better products for the consumers to engage with us.

Rob Stevenson 9:47
I love that moment where you were tapped on the shoulder to go from retail to corporate essentially, right. You’ve been having success in your store and then someone at the time saw Yeah, I think there’s a Well you Bebo character, you know might be good somewhere else and they saw that you while maybe not having the precise experience that you had the skills or that you have like the ability to move into this role that feels like such an important job of senior talent folks is like seeing this potential and seeing that okay, even though they haven’t done the job, exactly, they will thrive in it. And that’s the kernel of what an opportunity is. I love that too. Because for the people listening, if you don’t have the precise experience to do the job you want, maybe that’s okay, maybe you can reframe it in terms of Oh, but I have the skills necessary. And has hiring, recruiting. Has it changed since then? Because now I feel like if someone were to be hired for that role you were put into, it’s like, oh, well, how would you recruit? If you didn’t have LinkedIn for a day? Or what are your favorite Boolean searches? Or, or all these other like, kind of like technical questions? Is it the same? Is it different? Can someone still make that move and be successful? What are your views on on how things have progressed since then?

Ali Bebo 11:00
I do hear what you’re saying that technology has really changed the sort of talent acquisition landscape. And I do think for the better, but what I would say is true, is great. Recruiters are really great at finding talent and seeing talent in some cases where people don’t see it themselves. And you’ve got to be somewhat creative and imaginative in a way that you’re you’re thinking about, well, they’ve done this role outside of your industry or the industry that you might be in yourself, but they have certainly had a set of key accomplishments that once you understand those accomplishments, even better, you’re probably getting into the halibut, how do they do it and somewhat of what actually what I think the best recruiters are, is they really understand how people got to where they are, what talents they brought to those opportunities. And it’s really again, it’s about talent spotting, it’s about seeing in someone, something they don’t see themselves. And in many ways back to the creative and being imaginative, being a bit bullish and supporting them along the way to say I think you can do it and helping them themselves understand the different talents, they bring the different ways in which they do something that may seem different, find those talents that they have in common with what the new opportunity would need.

Rob Stevenson 12:36
If something like this is maybe how you approach your role as CHR ro to sort of planning for the future a little bit. Pearson I’m sure at any given time has dozens, perhaps hundreds of open roles. And yes, you want those jobs filled, but you kind of have to look to 2024 2526? How are we going to fill those roles? So I would love to know how much of your role is here are the jobs in front of us we need to hire for right now. Versus Here’s what’s coming down the pipeline. And we really need to be focused on that.

Ali Bebo 13:06
Great question. One of the things that we bring to the market as Pearson, we bring some solutions for companies like ourselves to understand the skills we have today. So whether it’s digital skills, engineering skills, project management skills, we help companies understand your makeup, the makeup of your company, the skills, DNA of your company. And we also with our product, called fathom, are able to help individuals like myself, or anybody that’s in the business of strategic workforce planning, understand where the skills are going, what’s needed for the future. And of course, in 2023, clearly AI disrupted the landscape, the skills landscape. And we’ve been quite fortunate with our workforce skills, division to have the Fathom solution actually be turned inward into Pearson and understand what jobs will be relevant in the next three to five years and what jobs will be replaced. And not so much jobs per se, but jobs but also tasks will be replaced by by AI and in particular generative AI. And we do see it as a positive. We do see it as an opportunity for us then to say, Okay, where do we need to double down and invest in our organization? What are the skills we need to invest in, and we call it upscaling and rescaling the phrase that’s often talked about, because we really do think, you know, while we’ll have open opportunities and we For outside, we’re an organization that you know employs at any given time anywhere from 18,000 to 52,000 employees, because we our business ebbs and flows. But what we do have is real, real important opportunity to look inside Pearson, it’s a very big talent pool. And really understand the skills people have today and help them think about the skills gaps. That one we know we need as an organization, but to they might need themselves to be able to stay relevant, but also to grow professionally here at Pearson. So it’s on all of our minds, how do we future proof organization. And and I feel quite blessed to be a part of an organization that can both find a path to do it ourselves, and future proof here, but also help other organizations do the same. So it’s kind of exciting, exciting place to be in certainly roll the half.

Rob Stevenson 15:57
Also, Pearson is an education company itself, right? So you’re, I would imagine uniquely positioned to help people get from A to B here. Yeah, that process, though, of upskilling? Is it reliant on the individuals themselves to raise their hand and say, hey, I want to upskill? Or are you looking throughout the organization tapping shoulders and being like, hey, we think you could grow into this position. What is the balance there?

Ali Bebo 16:19
Yeah, it’s definitely both. I’ll start with the concept of being a talent finder, and understanding the skills and the task behind each role, when individuals don’t always know and I love that about ourselves and human resources, and those of us in talent is, we’re really great at sort of dissecting the roles themselves. So if you’re a project manager, you know many ways you bring some leadership skills, you don’t realize you have to organize and orchestrate folks who are coming from different experiences and different jobs to get work done. And so in many ways, what we’re trying to do is to help people see it, and see those skills that they don’t necessarily know they have. And frankly, almost move from A, I’ll call it role agnostic, but more of a skills focused opportunity, if that makes sense. It’s this idea that, you know, if we can use skills as our own professional career currency, that can open up a lot of doors. But where we are now, and most companies where we are now on this journey is to really help people understand those skills and understand how those skills are super transferable. So that’s just sort of the idea of knowing what you have. And then helping people kind of AIM those skills towards different work and different opportunities, kind of really think about how we can bring what I call almost a learning cycle to Pearson, where you’re able to diagnose the current skills you have, you’re able to go after and pick the content that if you learn it, and practice, it would help you kind of be able to take on more opportunities. So hope that makes sense. And if I need to clarify, Rob, I will certainly clarify.

Rob Stevenson 18:13
It doesn’t make sense. It’s great advice. The one challenge I foresee is if I’m an individual contributor, even a director level person listening to this, I’m like, Ally, that’s great. But my boss is not asking me about the jobs that I’m supposed to hire, you know, two years from now, or what roles we’re going to need or skills we’re going to need in the future. A lot of the folks out there in recruitment, right now, they have these goals in front of them, right? They have these targets they have to hit. And it’s tough because I think to succeed in a role like yours, or even elevate into a role like yours, one must be thinking about the future in these ways. And yet, you’re not incentivized to think about the future in your current role. So what am I going to do if I’m being pressured to fill the roles in front of me yet? At the same time? I know, I’m not going to get to advance in my career, unless I’m thinking about the future.

Ali Bebo 19:02
Yeah, it is a challenge. I’m going to actually position it in a different way. I think, at times managers aren’t comfortable. I have this comes across the right way, sort of constantly drafting a new team and sort of thinking about a team and how it can evolve over time. And it’s not about you want to have a manager sort of termed through their team and constantly have attrition that’s turning over individuals every year. But I do think there’s a different challenge for people where they actually aren’t creating the openings themselves. And they’re waiting for the opening to happen. reactively and that’s where you’ve got to be very proactive as a manager to sort of understand that even though I have individuals in this role today, they may not be fit for the future. And I want to make sure I caveat that it doesn’t mean those individuals may not be right. For Pearson, they may have other roles. And we want to make sure there’s a market for them where they can have other opportunities. But often we we find managers are not comfortable sort of taking that view of proactive building of their team versus reactive building of their team, if that makes sense. So most of time, we find I think your example is an opening has happened. But likely, it’s not on their terms. It’s on the employees terms. And so you sort of constantly think through as a manager, what I want to do, what do I need to do to retain that talent, that capability for the future? And then if I don’t have the talent and capability for the future, what am I doing to upskill? Or what am I doing to kind of replace, and then upskill, but in a different, you know, from an outside the market or inside Pearson perspective?

Rob Stevenson 21:11
Okay. So you would say that, if you are in a position where you are reacting to backfilling roles, or you are only being incentivized on the jobs that are right in front of you that are currently open, you sort of need to have that conversation to force people to be a little more forward thinking and ask those hiring managers and ask your boss like things like your boss’s boss to basically be like, Hey, okay, look, the talent machine is working. It’s running, we’re going to have pipeline for this role you have up and that’s in process. But let’s not be having this conversation q3 Next year, what’s coming up for you? Yes, that’s the kind of conversation you need to have.

Ali Bebo 21:44
It is, and it’s really thinking about it. So I wouldn’t even start with just the concept that they’re a hiring manager. What I was start with is, and it’s a view that I have, and it’s been talked about is managers are coaches, and managers really are performance coaches. So it’s this idea of, I’m a coach of a team, and how am I thinking about the players that I am starting for a given game as an example? And what am I thinking about, as the team and the year evolves in terms of the different ways I’ve got to look at different combinations and different color substitutions that I’m going to bring in. So maybe it’s a clunky analogy, but I think the most important view that we have is, if you’re a manager, you’re really a coach, you really coach into performance. And I think that doesn’t necessarily mean you’re a short term, near term, focused individual, you’re thinking near term, mid term, long term, because if you’re coaching your coaching, for, you know, not just the year you’re going into, but the year after that, and the idea, as a coach, when you’re planning as a coach, you’re always raising the bar. So it might be a just different way of framing that managers don’t necessarily think about the future. But if they think about performance, they really are kind of thinking about the future, if that makes sense.

Rob Stevenson 23:14
Yeah, it does. I think that metaphor is apropos, particularly because athletes aged out of their craft, right? And you see this all the time, where it’s like, Okay, here’s someone who’s performing really, really well. They’re like the star player, but you know, that they’re probably going to retire in the next few years, right? So then you can’t, you can, if you’re like, their beloved team, you can’t afford to give them a big contract, because you’re like, hey, they’re a great player, they’ve done amazing work by us, but they’re not the future of the franchise, you know. So it’s like, it hurts to let them go and see him be in another jersey for two years, but you have to let them go. And that’s like a normal part of the career trajectory for an athlete that coaches and management all understand. And yet here in talent on the other side of things were like, so surprised Pikachu meme, when, when, when people leave, right, like, it’s always this big shock. And it’s just not the normal idea that they will mature out of your organization for one reason or another.

Ali Bebo 24:05
No, Rob, I love love that you brought the sports analogy into it, I was probably attempting it, but I happen to be a big follower of the Premier League, and my team is Liverpool, and I’m, I’m always anxious when the lead player, the star player, like mo Salah is like entertaining other opportunities, but the end of the day, you know, he’s not going to be able to stay there forever. And so the interesting thing that I think we can draw parallel from sports teams, and the way they approach recruiting, is they actually recruit for folks that are much younger, they’re early in their career. And so in many ways, they’re a really great example of sort of playing the long game, but with a view and with the view that let’s look for folks that have raw potential, because if they join our organization, you know, especially someone like our place like Pearson, that’s the learning organization, you can come here and grow. Because we’ve got managers who are coaches, we’ve got managers who are performance coaches, we’ve got an opportunity where you can learn the skills that are needed not just for today, but for tomorrow. And that, I think, is a talent acquisition function in your head of talent, when you’re thinking about sort of those early career just coming out of college, and thinking about those individuals and that talent pool, you really are playing for the future. And that’s a great place to be i i love how Pearson has a really good kind of range of Gen Z’s if you want to call the generational aspect that we’ve got that all the different age segments from Gen Z’s to millennials to Gen X and baby boomers, and we’ve got them all. And so it’s really nice actually having that diversity. But but at the same time, I love how the sports analogy really plays into start at start the academy start focusing on people out of college.

Rob Stevenson 26:06
Yeah, exactly the hiring for the future thing. It makes so much sense. And you had to do that earlier this year, I imagine, not in the sense of the raw, unproven talent, but in the sense of the assessing the ability to find raw, proven talent, when Pearson hired a new CEO. Yeah, and yeah, so you have this new CEO, I imagine, as that was going to be your peer slash boss, you were involved in that process pretty heavily, right?

Ali Bebo 26:30
Yeah, no, it was really a great privilege to be invited into that process. And, and it’s a it’s a process really, that for every board member, one, it’s it’s top of mine. And it’s not just one, they know, they are needing to make a change. But the board really thinks about that CEO selection, and of course retention, as really one of the most important roles that they play. And naming a CEO is certainly one of the most important decisions that they will make. So I was very much honored to be a part of the selection process where it’s a bit of a role reversal, where I was, and have been hired by a CEO, this time, I was able to be a part of thinking about who I want to work for. And then at the same time, also thinking about and helping the board understand where we think, you know, where we think we are as management relative to our sort of strategic time horizon. And also thinking about what we need in terms of skills and leadership and experiences and, and often you think about what you need, but you also want to think about what’s leaving. And Andy bird is, he’s retiring, he’s leaving us the very end of this year, first week of January. And it was very important, we understood what Andy brought to Pearson, in his three years of tenure here, and what he was able to do and how he was able to get us to where we are now we’ve got great momentum, we’ve gotten really good performance, and certainly a strong balance sheet. But he certainly helped us think about the next iteration of Pearson and certainly helped us lean into the purpose that we have, which is to add life to a lifetime of learning. So with Andy leaving, we wanted to understand what was going with him. And then what we wanted to retain, as well as what we wanted to acquire as Pearson goes into our next chapter and certainly continues the momentum that we have now. And we’re really excited to have Mr. Bosch start. He is beginning very shortly, week of January 8, and we’re quite thrilled about that. And, you know, we know for him, and for Andy, it was very important that the two of them talk. So we did a nice little facilitation, and we’ll have a transition period that will go smoothly. But yeah, it was it was quite a privilege, and certainly a great opportunity to be a part of, quote unquote, picking your new boss, which is great. ,

Rob Stevenson 29:07
Yeah I imagine the selection process for a CEO does not go like other roles where they get on the phone with a recruiting coordinator. And it’s like, walk me through your resume, you know, and then they interview you and you’re like, Tell me about a time when you failed. Like what was I guess the interview process like when you sat down to start screening folks, what are you interested in learning?

Ali Bebo 29:25
So again, the board really looked at, again, the the skills we wanted to retain and the skills they wanted to acquire you. Typically, if you don’t have an internal option, which we didn’t have won this round. We partnered with an executive recruiting firm, we partnered with Spencer Stewart, who were really thoughtful in both helping us kind of understand where we are and what we need and really what we need for the future because we’re playing for the long game again, neither one of those we’re playing for the long game here. And with the partnership with the board and and of course, the partners that Spencer Stewart, we were really able to then come together and see, they’ve got a great network. I mean, they know talent, they back to being talent finders and staying connected in the market, it was really more about who they know and who they thought could bring that sort of combination of talents that we’re looking for, we knew there wasn’t going to be one perfect fit. However, we were able to pick from a very, very diverse set of individuals across industries that we thought were appropriate for us as we thought about the future, as well as backgrounds that we thought were appropriate for us as we thought about the future. So I think first part, is that sort of calibrating around what do we need, and then really matching that up against individuals who may not at all, I even have known about Pehrson, or even be thinking about leaving. But I think the role that the board played in partnership, and certainly it’s a select group of individuals, of course, you have our chairman Omate corte Stani, who was very much involved in leading this and handpicked a few folks around, you know, not handpick, but folks volunteer on the board to be a part of it. Typically, you’ve got those that are on the nomination and Governance Committee are involved. But anyhow, that that group really very much came together and set out and had interviews and one on one interviews, and then came together and did group interviews. And then we did a an interview, not really an interview, necessarily, but we had an opportunity for final candidates to present their vision and ask questions and get close to them. So yeah, it was very comprehensive as it should be.

Rob Stevenson 31:46
I’m just imagining you all have like, you have like the interview panel, did you put feedback in an ATS is like, oh, here are the questions that we want you to ask or is it less structured, more structured? Has it compared to the kind of assessment process? I for one I’m familiar with?

Ali Bebo 32:01
Yeah, I actually, it’s very similar. And I think it should be the exact partners that you work with. Again, they’re pros, they have grown up, often as you know, recruiters themselves and recruited for all sorts of different roles. And they’re very thoughtful about all the things that companies are thinking about certainly thinking about diversity, certainly thinking about our strategy and where we want to go. And in many ways, what I find when you find a real good, you know, executive partner, is there an extension at times of the management team, and they are very much another thought partner. But the process itself is very much similar. In fact, you know, often I borrow templates if I can just to say, like, Hey, this is a great way to set up for any of our recruiters, here’s a new way of positioning a candidate, because it’s real important, I think arts but also science to be able to talk about a candidate that you’ve never met in a way that gets you excited, but at the same time, you know, it helps you understand kind of where the pluses and where are the watch outs and where the things that you think we should prefer they’re on. But very standard, very similar. There’s really not a big secret sauce, per se, but I think the difference is just how they engage in the market, and how they really help candidates through the process. They’re very much confidence and thought partners, for the candidates. And that goes for the CEO searches all the way through to any any level of the organization.

Rob Stevenson 33:41
Gotcha. Before I let you go here, Ally as we keep them on optimal podcast length, I would love it if you could share some parting advice for the folks out there who want to uplevel in their own careers and you know, be the best talent pro they can be.

Ali Bebo 33:56
Ah, well, I often ask the question of folks, as they’re sort of thinking about where they want to go, but also what goals and what opportunities they want to pursue. I asked the question that often gets them stumped. But it’s a really good question that you spend time thinking about it can be unlocking. And that is what can you do better than 10,000 people? Often people talk about it in terms of their superpowers. But there is a think, a secret sauce there that once you can really answer that question. Then you find roles and you find opportunities where there’s less friction. Your days go by fast, you get into the flow of work. Because when you’re in a role, that you’re able to use your best strengths and get to do what you do best every day. Then, frankly, performance happens, productivity happens, enriching careers end up happening and evolving out of that. And so this sort of journey to towards self awareness, and then also appreciation. And then ultimately application of those talents that frankly, you do better than anybody else, I think help help you one personally grow and feel like you’re having a fulfilling career and a role that gets the best of you. But too, it sets you on a performance path. And the performance path for me is, is really the focus versus a career path. And it’s one of those things where you just find over time when you’re delivering and you’re doing work that that adds value, and it’s rewarding to you. That’s when you get tapped on the shoulder because people are like, wow, look at what they’ve done. And you’re like, oh, yeah, look what I have done. So I just think that whole journey towards understanding you know, your superpowers what you do better than anybody else you can imagine or no takes time. But it’s worth it because once you find those roles that you know get the best of you, then it’s easy. Neff really easy but you know what I mean?

Rob Stevenson 36:05
Easier? Yes. Yeah, it’s easy. This has been a delight you were a blast to speak with so thank you for being on for your candor and for sharing all your experience and wisdom and the I’ve loved having you on the show today.

Ali Bebo 36:16
Thank you Rob. It’s been awesome Happy New Year to everyone Happy New Year to you and certainly wish you all the best and certainly achieving all the goals even though we’re not writing them down that we’ve set out to go after. Cheers .

Rob Stevenson 36:34
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