Northwestern Mutual VP HR Kara Hughes

Kara Hughes 0:00
Hello, I’ve never had an HR partner like this great compliment can be a little disheartening, but I will tell you, I hear it less and less.

Rob Stevenson 0:13
Welcome to Talk Talent to me, a podcast featuring the most elite talent leaders on the front lines of modern recruitment.

Speaker 2 0:20
We actually want to understand the themes of someone’s life, we want to understand how they make decisions, where they’re willing to take risks, and what it looks like when they fail,

Rob Stevenson 0:30
no holds barred completely off the cuff interviews with directors of recruitment VPs of global talent, CHR rows, and everyone in between.

speaker 3 0:39
Once I went through the classes and the trainings and got the certifications through diversity and inclusion, I still felt like something was missing.

Speaker 2 0:39
Talent Acquisition. It’s a fantastic career, you are trusted by the organization. You get to work with the C suite and the security at the front desk and everybody in between. And everybody knows you.

Rob Stevenson 1:00
I’m your host, Rob Stevenson, and you’re about to hear the best in the biz. talk down to me. All right, everybody. Welcome back to Talk talent to me. It’s me, your buddy Rob here with another classic installment, I have a wonderful guest for you. She is the VP HR business partner of Tekken. Digital and the same time, the head of workforce planning people insights and analytics over at Northwestern Mutual. Cara Hughes, welcome to the podcast. How are you today?

Kara Hughes 1:27
I’m great. How are you? Rob? Thanks for having me.

Rob Stevenson 1:30
Yeah, I’m really pleased to have you. And I’m doing great. And we have loads to talk about. And I’m gonna throw a little bit of a curveball at you first thing because I got this text from a friend of mine, right before we began recording, and it’s about recruitment. And so I want to kind of get your gut reaction to this. May I read it to you? Sure. Okay, this is a friend of mine. I’ve known since college. He’s a aeronautics engineer. And he’s like, pretty, he’s like, senior manager or something at this point. So pretty well experienced, really smart guy. Okay, he wrote me this text, I got to complain to you about a recruiting thing, I think you’ll appreciate that I’m sticking my phone in a locker for a few hours. Okay, he wrote me, this company hit me up and was like, Hey, we got this job in Dallas, your background looks perfect for its four by 10s. And hybrid. So two days in the office, we talked to pay, and it was iffy for me. But I liked the idea of hybrid. So I wanted to hear them out in the interview, I go through the whole interview. And they tell me the expectation is to be in the office four days a week. Guys, what are we doing here? I just wasted three hours of my day to go home and interview for this position that you misrepresented. So that’s pretty bad experience. And it’s pretty obviously clear what happened, right? It’s just the recruiter and the hiring manager, not on the same page. And so what a waste of time, right? He went through a three hour interview process only to learn that. Yeah. And what’s interesting about this is to you and to I’m sure anyone within the reach of my voice, this is immediately obvious what the problem is, is I assume, because if you’re listening to this podcast, you’re a good recruiter, and you wouldn’t let something like this happen. So here’s my question for you, Kara. If I told you the company who interviewed that was Northwestern Mutual, it was not for the record? Absolutely. It was not. But if you heard this happen at your company, what would be your internal response?

Kara Hughes 3:15
I give you the name of the head of talent acquisition to pass your feedback on to I’m just kidding. You know, those things happen. Hopefully, it’s a one off. It’s really unfortunate, you’d get through a three hour interview before discovery and that misalignment. But I would say that advocating for candidates, I will tell you, what are your most important sort of qualifiers in being interested in that opportunity or continuing to be interested in that opportunity? And open with asking those questions, because it is a deal breaker. And the sole reason they took the meeting and took the interview was because they were intrigued by hybrid like open with getting that clarity. Because recruiters and hiring managers you hope they have a really good intake meeting and are really, really clear on requirements, but signals get crossed. So advocate for yourself and cover all those important bases at the outset and don’t feel bad about doing it.

Rob Stevenson 4:14
That’s great advice, reflecting on your deal breakers and what is really important to you and just reiterating over and over and over again, which candidates shouldn’t have to do. It’s unfortunate you know, that they we live in a world where people have to continually remind everyone they’re speaking to in this process, what is important to them, but I guess it’s just what we have to do.

Kara Hughes 4:32
It is it’s just human nature, and people sometimes hear what they want to hear. It’s a sales process, right? They’re trying to sell you on an opportunity close the wreck. So you’ve got to look out for yourself and keep reiterating those requirements. I think where things mostly go sideways is around PE. So that disconnect you heard they’re on a work schedule often happens with PE and there’s a lot of new He wants us to it. So yes, you have to keep advocating for yourself and being really clear about what you do and don’t want. And if you’re not clear, I wouldn’t take the interview until you are, honestly.

Rob Stevenson 5:11
Great point. What’s hard though, is, as candidates, we often interview so infrequently, you might do a lot at one period. But then you also might go through a period like this person, in particular, my friend who goes through one every year, year and a half maximum. And so you don’t get as many at bats to know to do that stuff.

Kara Hughes 5:27
Call on your network, call on your network, and everybody’s got to have a recruiter in their network, I would imagine. And just refresh on the basics. I think it’s really helpful. There’s people who will tell you a story they hadn’t interviewed in 20 years or something. You’ve got to call on all sorts of friends, family and folks in your network to help you get prepped for that.

Rob Stevenson 5:52
That happened to my mother, actually, she was at a really, really, really long time. And she’s like, I have this really exciting interview, and I realized, I haven’t updated my resume, or I haven’t even been in a job interview for 20 years. And it was so strange. And I was like, why am I the one giving my mom career advice?

Kara Hughes 6:06
Right? Yeah, no, she’s not alone. That happens quite a bit, actually. And it is quite a foreign experience. I mean, even if you haven’t done it in a year, or even if you do interview people being interviewed is a completely different ballgame. I think people sometimes they go, it’s my experience, what an easy thing to talk about. And it is who do you know better than yourself. But I still think it behooves you to reach out, solicit advice prep, so that you can show up the best that you can possibly show up, especially if you really want the job.

Rob Stevenson 6:42
It’s such a delicate dance, isn’t it, because it’s not merely highlighting your experience and like explaining what you’ve been working on. For the last however long, you also have to pick out the specific things you think about that, or you think that the hiring manager cares about, you must put it in the terms of your own career goals, you must also be assessing them at the same time, like with my friend, it’s like, oh, you needed to be making sure that the hybrid thing was the case the whole time. So I understand why people get frustrated, you know, and why people have these experiences that leave them feeling less than, you know, fulfilled, just because it’s already a delicate, difficult thing to do. And then we don’t do it enough to get good at it. And then you sometimes run into this problem, like my friend did, where there was just a misalignment on the side of the business.

Kara Hughes 7:26
They are that’s disappointing. Definitely.

Rob Stevenson 7:29
It is my advice to him. What wasn’t device, I said, I’d be tempted to write them a note explaining my frustration, and why I’m withdrawing. And as you don’t have to be a jerk. But you can be like, listen, I only cared about this, because of the hybrid elements. When I found that that wasn’t the case. I felt like the position was misrepresented. And I’m a little frustrated. And I feel like I wasted my time. Therefore I’m withdrawing my application. Is that reasonable to say to somebody?

Kara Hughes 7:52
I think so. If you’re fair and professional and appropriate, I think they need those data points. They need to understand why people are withdrawing. So it’s valuable information. And you know, you might get back a nice No, and a May a culpa. And you haven’t burned a bridge and it’s maybe a valuable lesson learned for them.

Rob Stevenson 8:13
Yep, definitely. Well, folks out there, don’t let this happen to you. I’m sure you don’t. But just another another little bit recruiting horror story from the side of the candidate for you to mull over and some good advice from you Cara on keeping your deal breakers, front and center, voicing them early and often. But anyway, curveball over, curveball knocked out of the park. Good job to continue the metaphor. But I mean, let’s get to know you a little bit. I would love to know that you have this title, which is a bit of a mouthful. I have I have to admit, how would you kind of characterize your role and how did you get there.

Kara Hughes 8:44
I’m currently a senior HR business partner over two business units, client experience and digital and technology. And the reason why my title is so long as I recently about six, seven months ago, took on a couple of COEs Centers of Expertise, excellence, whatever you want to call it, and now have simply put workforce planning and HR data and analytics. So that’s why the title gets really long. How I got to where I am today is definitely a very winding road. But I would say it’s characterized by a few things. And I’m sure it’s very similar for many, but people taking chances on me, leaning in on me sponsoring me believing in my capabilities, sometimes more than I even did at the time. I can identify two or three important inflection points in my career where total leap of faith was taken with me and I think it’s important. I always reflect on who those people are, even if they’re still not in my life. I’ve tried to cultivate, maintain some of those relationships that I’ve really valued and cherished and show gratitude and know who has gotten you to where you are and who’s helped you along the way. Because if you really sit back and Take stock. It’s many, many people. So my career path has been interesting in that I was a French language graduate student and thought I was going to be a French professor. And to quote, one of my favorite existentialists, and 20th century French philosophers, John Paul, without the French accent too much here, but John Paul, south, is freedom doesn’t mean success. But we are radically free to always change what he called our fundamental project. So as a freebie, and I certainly exercise that. And realize academia really wasn’t the place for me, I didn’t really want to continue on to get my PhD in French literature and become a French professor. So it wasn’t a terribly difficult decision and deviation. I was compelled, in that I was quite unhappy and just didn’t feel like it was suited for me. But then where do you go from there in your career, and this is sort of leap of faith. Number one, I transitioned into staffing agency recruiting. So that was my foot in the door for HR, I had no experience, but it’s very sales cycle oriented. So I think my extraversion, my work ethic, my high energy, it served me well. They saw those things in me and took a chance on me. And it led to some degree of success there. And then I moved to tech recruiting. Again, no experience in tech recruiting, I was doing just professional staffing, but an agency recruiting and they don’t get so hung up on some of those hard skills, but more soft skills and potential. Probably the last really big leap is moving from agency to corporate talent acquisition, and I became head of TA for a company. And this is where I was really fortunate to have one of the best leaders I’ve ever worked for great mentor, developer of talent. And it was a very interesting interview process. He was looking more for self awareness drive was I developable, he saw potential, he wasn’t hard lined about my lack of experience in a corporate setting, because agency recruiting and corporate recruiting is quite different. And he saw potential and took another chance on me. And it was interesting, because it was the first time a leader had really talked about EQ with me and its importance in business, and put a lot of stock in it. The idea of emotional intelligence had been around I think, for a while at that point. But it was the first time I really started hearing about it. And it was hitting mainstream leadership sort of vernacular and practices and was really, really valued by this leader. And so did he care about my ability to run a corporate ta recruiting cycle? And how it was different how you work with your stakeholders differently? No, not really, he was looking for all of these other attributes. And it was a really interesting experiences a great experience. The next really interesting inflection point was I got a call for an HRBP role for a global company. The idea was scary at first, because I was used to being the head of HR and running the entire HR practice. But I wanted to work in a larger global company was very exciting to me too. And I wanted to do bigger, more sophisticated HR, I didn’t want to be the top expert in HR in the company anymore. Like, I have no one to bounce ideas off of unless they’re outside the company. I really wanted to be humbled by the experience of others and learn. So I became one of seven senior HRBPs at a VP level for a large large company like 50,000 employees globally multibillion dollar company. And ironically, I think you’ll really appreciate this, I became the head of HR for Latin America. So in all the Spanish and Portuguese speaking countries, I was the head of HR. The irony is not lost on me.

Rob Stevenson 14:09
Maybe they viewed that as a stretch opportunity for you. Finally, look at a Romance language.

Kara Hughes 14:15
It’s close enough, it’s adjacent enough You’re gonna do great. It’s a related Latin language,

Rob Stevenson 14:20
figure it out, you’ll figure it out.

Kara Hughes 14:22
Oh, it was not a French speaking one. But alas, I’ve always found the French speakers in every company that I’ve worked for. So see, Dad, I’m using that master’s degree. And then how I ended up at nm, the CHRO from the prior company eventually moved to Nm and I got the call. I did a short tour. In I joined doing talent management and the COE experience. It was very short lived, because in HRBP opening became available, but I did talent management for about four, four or five months maybe. And then I became the senior HRBP for a function and then They gave me another function. And you really you become the head of HR for those functions, some say like a mini CHR aro role. But I get a little scolded for that at times too, because it’s not many as my groups have about 4040 500 people, and, um, it’s a larger FTE count than many companies. And then here we are going back full circle to my long title about six, seven months ago, I took on those additional siwi. So I still am the head of HR for those functions, but also have HR data and workforce planning, which have been not the areas that I’ve had a lot of depth in, throughout my career, except for maybe the last like five years or so. But it’s been like a great learning experience. And I’ve really enjoyed going deeper in those spaces.

Rob Stevenson 15:53
I like how you called out the folks who saw potential in you, and who maybe looked at a role and put you up for it, even though it was not exactly related to the experience you had. And then fast forward and I see you taking the care of workforce planning under your purview. And I’m seeing this dream of like, okay, can we focus on where someone is now and where they might be or where the business is now and where it might be? That feels like it’s an increasing ly important part of recruiting recruiters are often pushed to fill the role in front of them and help the hiring manager hit their immediate yearly goals. But there’s this notion of how can they contribute on a larger, longer term level? Is that something that can only happen in big HR, as you called it? Or what do you think is the role of recruiters to really keep in mind workforce planning and make the business care about it?

Kara Hughes 16:43
That’s a great question. I think the best recruiters are having some of those conversations about future talent needs and skills and capabilities they need on their teams. They’re having those conversations with the leaders that they work with, and looking at their workforce a little bit more holistically. It just equips the recruiter to keep in mind, a full range of possibilities when they’re talking to candidates, right? It just creates like these economies of scale, when you understand where the organization you support is going. So I do think there’s a role there, I do think the best ones do it, I don’t think you have to be doing big HR everywhere to be able to partner and come to the table that way. But I do think what you said in the beginning is also right, in that it can be very transactional, right? a hiring manager can be transactional, the recruiter can be transactional, and at the end of the day, they’re supposed to fill racks. So they are transactions, but they can be just very focused on the role in front of them, and trying to optimize for their time to fill and getting the right candidate in front of them as quickly as possible. And all those things are really important, but I don’t think it precludes you from having these more strategic conversations as well.

Rob Stevenson 18:14
Have you seen this focus on workforce planning come from the talent department in the people professionals? Or is it come from other arms of the business in your career,

Kara Hughes 18:23
I would say that the business units that have the best planning muscle in general, the talent planning aspect, and the workforce planning aspect, naturally will follow suit. So without business strategies, there’s really nothing for us to do from a talent perspective. We’re there to drive business value, and align the workforce to achieve those business strategies. So it really needs to stem from that. And so I do believe those who have good planning muscle talent will just come into the conversation. Do they know how to work with you? Do they know all the time what you can bring to the table? No, they don’t. That’s our job. And we can we can meet them there and fill that gap. But if they have good planning muscle, they will start the conversation that in my experience

Rob Stevenson 19:20
is such a good point. Even if they don’t start their conversation, you as a town person kind of can’t start the conversation if they haven’t thought about it. Right? If like you let you say, hey, I want to talk about workforce planning. I want to talk about the skills we’re going to need in 2026. You can start that conversation and then you might get a bunch of blank stares, right? That’s right. And so then what are you supposed to do like all right, well come back and tell me when you have some plan on where this company is going and then I will start backfilling for some of these you know, we’ll start planning for the future. So you need to involve yourself in those conversations and seek that out. Is that kinda what you’re saying?

Kara Hughes 19:52
Yes, I don’t think it’s just incumbent upon them to kind of hand you the business stuff. Adeje you need to understand their business strategy as well. It might be there, they just aren’t coming to you and articulating it to you so that you can join forces from like a workforce planning standpoint. But you can help make that connection from strategy to workforce by doing your research, understanding, maybe their roadmaps, their long range plans, if they have them, not everybody has them, and start the dialogue in the context of their strategy. They don’t have to be the one to do that. And then from there, they you know, they really might start connecting dots on like, Oh, I see how this connects to the workforce.

Rob Stevenson 20:44
What are some of those questions you can ask when you are trying to take business strategy back to your own team and your own hiring goals? What do you ask to try and get a starting point?

Kara Hughes 20:56
So I think you start the dialogue by just digging in deep on business strategy and figuring out the time horizon, how far does it extend out? Because strategic workforce planning really is long term and has breadth to it. So I think the conversation, it has to start there. And then from there, you can talk about skills? What skills do you need in the future? what capabilities do you think you’re going to need? There’s a whole suite of questions that you can ask. And then you should also be coming to the table with a strong understanding of their current talent landscape as well, you need to know their workforce, because you can connect dots and ask even better questions based on what they’re telling you about the strategy. And maybe you see gaps based on their current workforce. So it is incumbent upon us as the HR partner, to bring that data set and bring the external perspective to about what we know about skills, availability, perhaps in the market supply, that external perspective is really important, too.

Rob Stevenson 22:01
Yeah, that makes sense that it’s this opportunity, and really necessity to be consultative to the business when they say they have these goals. And you can kind of translate it into Okay, well, if you want to do XYZ, here’s what it means from a hiring perspective. And here’s the current landscape of our talent, here’s what you need, right? And then you can kind of be prescriptive about helping them get there, like representing your arm or the business for that case. That’s right. Now, this consultative approach, this feels like what all ta pros kind of aspire to, right, you know, the, quote, unquote, seat at the table. I’m saying deeply, because I do hear people worried about HR having a seat at the table. But at the same time I speak to someone like you, and it sounds like you do have a seat at the table. It sounds like you’re contributing at a very high level to the strategy of the business. And I see it all the time I interview people who they have to reschedule a recording, because they have to prep for the investor meetings, and they have to prep for board meetings. And they are like, oh, sorry, I got this ask from the CEO, I really need to crank on this for a little bit. Can we do this later? So those people have seats at the table? And then in my other year, I hear this, like, how does HR get a seat at the table? So I guess I would ask you, why do you think this narrative persists? Why do you think there’s this conversation about how does HR get a seat at the table when, in my perspective, and a lot of cases that they already do?

Speaker 1 23:21
Well, I think you talk to a lot of really good people who you select your you select your podcast participants really well. I could opine on this for hours. Oh, go ahead. And I have lots of theories on this. And I have a very clear view of it. So HR was set up as an administrative function, right and managed employee hygiene, company policies, hiring, onboarding, not a whole lot in between benefits, administration, whatever, that ultimately, if that’s your core purpose, and your function that attracts people with a certain orientation. They are task oriented people. So they’re very good at tactics. They’re precise in their tactics. They might be rule followers, very principled individuals. And I even go so far as to say justice seekers in some ways. So if this is your purpose, these are the skills that are valued. And there’s a deep, entrenched history there. And then all of a sudden, you have to shift and try to position yourself as credible advocates, strategic partners. So going from company police are as I like to say, sometimes Fun Police because I think they see us as the Fun Police sometimes, to the sophisticated talent advisors and executive coaches. It’s quite a shift. Those are not the same people. Oh, and by the way, by the way, you have to keep doing all of those other things perfectly, because people gotta get paid But you got to have all these other skills as well. Now, it’s a really, really hard shift. And I think that’s why it takes so long and why the conversation persists. But now I think running a good operational practice is just your ticket to entry. But all of those things are still extremely important roles to play. I Don’t devalue that work. But there’s so much more expected of us now. So I think the conversation persists, because it has been such a radical shift in the value that we’re expected to provide. But I will say, it can be disheartening to still hear, Oh, I’ve never had an HR partner like this great compliment. Wonderful, can be a little little disheartening, but I will tell you, I hear it less and less. I hear it less and less, I have to train people less and less on what good looks like raising their bar. So I do think it’s evolving. But I think that sort of duality of purpose is why the conversation persists. And I think it will, I think it might always, I think that’s okay,

Rob Stevenson 26:13
you summed that up really beautifully. Kara, I had never thought about it quite like that, before that HR came into the world as an administrative function. And then as companies have matured, and have more thoughtful, nuanced expectations, more technical processes, so too has the HR function. And yet there is still this belief that it is this administrative thing. And then I love how you call it out, yeah, that people gotta get paid. And there’s all this stuff that HR still has to do, or the lights go out and the ice cream melts. So you still must deliver on that base level that people often dismissed as merely administrative. And then you have to take it to the next level, do all of this basic administrative, which is like table stakes. And then the next level of this the V two V, whatever, right? The 2024. Enlightened diversion is contributing, and all these endlessly nuanced, multidisciplinary elements of the role, which is what I see in the really thoughtful, effective people, there’s so effective in lots of different ways. Yeah, I completely agree. It’s a frustrating place to be in to know that the thing that is affecting the businesses opinion of you, you still have to keep doing.

Kara Hughes 27:24
That’s right. We’re never going to divorce ourselves from those duties. And like I said, I Don’t devalue those roles. And it’s a very important role to play in the organization, we just have to do all these other things now. And I think they’re very opposing skill sets at times. And so we shift the value we bring, and the people who deliver that value are radically different. So it’s a lot of shifting, it’s a lot of change.

Rob Stevenson 27:59
Yeah, I like how you kind of spoke about the psychological profile, a little bit of who winds up in the role, too, you need this combination of like rule following Mavericks, which is such a, such an opposite thing, right, you need to be by the books, because that’s what compliance is. That’s what making sure that payroll runs, and that making sure that employee policies are followed and making sure that portals are set up. That’s what that requires that skill set. But then you also need to have this creativity, to bring yourself to the business in these new different ways.

Kara Hughes 28:30
You have to be a business person, you have to have strong business acumen, you’ve got to get entrenched, you got to know what they do. You’ve got to get to know individuals and build strong relationships. And be like I said, executive coach, advisor, consultant, but I believe you come to the table, I was talking to my team about this about the bag of credibility chips, we have to fill up the bag because we’re gonna have to put chips out. And you want to make sure the bags always full, and never empty. And though I have nothing to do with payroll in my organization, I have very little to do with benefits or whatever. Those are the things that are just the basics that fill the bag, no one’s gonna have a strategic conversation with you if they’ve got to talk to you about so and so’s pay being wrong or messed up or something. So you don’t earn the right for more strategic conversation and a strategic role if you don’t have the hygiene down. Most companies do you know, right? There’s great tools out there. There’s great systems and processes and wonderful professionals who know what they’re doing. But it’s just a basic that you can ignore.

Rob Stevenson 29:45
Yeah, it’s a hard job. No wonder your title is so long.

Kara Hughes 29:50
The longer the title, the harder the job. I liked that. I liked that correlation.

Rob Stevenson 29:55
It’s true. It’s true. It definitely the more complicated the job, boy care I really wish I could get the unedited hours long opining about that because like you’re standing here more but you did really succinctly some of the the thrust of the issue and how people I think can begin to deliver in new and exciting ways. Like you say it starts with having the hygiene. Man, I wish we could keep going, but we’re creeping up on optimal podcast lengthier so we have to we have to wind down I think that just means I need to have you in for part two. But before I let you go, I want to ask you to imagine you’re recruiting a French person. What is the first line of your email to them in its original French?

Kara Hughes 30:33
Oh, boy, that’s hard. bushel.

Rob Stevenson 30:38
Okay, great start.

Kara Hughes 30:40
It’s funny you say that because I speak really good French colloquially. So like day to day French, having conversations with people and in the context of academia. So I can talk to you about 20th century existentialism, and literary theory in French and I can write papers, probably not anymore. I’m overselling my skill here a little bit. But I’ve never done business French, other than teaching French. So my vocabulary in business French is quite poor other than I know it’s Elizabeth, you men is human resources, but I’m not that conversant. So I would just say Bonjour,

Rob Stevenson 31:21
bonjour was a great start. And if you ever find yourself in France, wherever I urge my non French speaking listeners, you must begin with Bonjour wherever you go. And you must not merely say it, you must sing it. It’s more like a bozo. Bozo. Right? Sorry. You’re off to a great start. There’s no conversation happening after that. It’s merely being polite. So some, some multicultural advice here the

Kara Hughes 31:43
various do ovo that’s spot on. It’s a very lovely, sing songy language, which is why people are like, ah, it sounds so beautiful. Would you speak French? And I’m like, Yeah, cuz I was just if you only knew what I was actually saying, I was yelling at my child to pick up their toys or something like that. And you’re not saying anything beautiful whatsoever, but it just always sounds so pretty.

Rob Stevenson 32:07
Yeah. And your your kids are like, Oh, pure poetry and like, No, I’m angry at you pick up your No,

Kara Hughes 32:13
they know those words. Now they know. Okay, my children know all the big 10 Kid phrases in French. Put on your seatbelt. That’s enough. Stop it. Go to your room. Sit down. You know, parenting one’s

Rob Stevenson 32:29
great for parenting. Maybe not so good for sourcing candidates. But anyway, Kara, this has been a delight. Thank you for sharing all of your experience and wisdom. Wow, I really just feel like we accomplished something here today trying to outline the narrative on seat at the table and how people can try to turn the franchise around a little bit. So thank you. Thank you again for joining us. I really love chatting with you today.

Kara Hughes 32:49
Same here. Thank you for having me. It’s a blast.

Rob Stevenson 32:54
Talk talent to me is brought to you by hired. Hired empowers connections by matching the world’s most innovative companies with ambitious tech and sales candidates. With hired candidates and companies have visibility into salary offers competing opportunities and job details. Hired unique offering includes customized assessments and salary bias alerts to help remove unconscious bias when hiring. By combining technology and human touch, our goal is to provide transparency in the recruiting process and empower each of our partners to employ their potential and keep their talent pipeline full. To learn more about how we can help you find your next great hire, head to hired.com/TT2M