Doreen Ghafari 0:00
We’ve gone through this huge exercise of figuring out what our competencies are. All right, cool. Now can we measure whether or not that’s having a true impact on performance?

Rob Stevenson 0:15
Welcome to Talk Talent to me, a podcast featuring the most elite talent leaders on the front lines of modern recruitment.

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We actually want to understand the themes of someone’s life, we want to understand how they make decisions, where they’re willing to take risks, and what it looks like when they fail,

Rob Stevenson 0:31
no holds barred completely off-the-cuff interviews with directors of recruitment to VPs of global talent, CHRO’s, and everyone in between.

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Rob Stevenson 1:01
I’m your host, Rob Stevenson. And you’re about to hear the best in the biz. talk down to me. Oh, yeah. Welcome back to talk down to me. It’s me, Rob, your humble host here with another classic installment of your favorite recruiting podcast. Welcome. Welcome to all of you, you wonderful rabble of beautiful recruiting panda bear cuties out there in podcast land. I’m so pleased you’re back. And I’m so pleased that my guest is back she has had a bunch of roles in talent. She is currently the VP of people over at Alltrails Give it up for returning champion Doreen Ghaffari Doreen, welcome to you. How are you?

Doreen Ghafari 1:38
Hello. I’m good. Thanks for having me back, Rob.

Rob Stevenson 1:41
Yeah, so pleased to have you back. You are at a new role since we spoke, but it’s not really a new role to you. You’ve been here a few years now. So it probably doesn’t make sense to be like, so why did you pick this job? But I would like to know, you know, a little bit about the company. I think people should know more about all the trails.

Doreen Ghafari 1:58
I’m happy to tell you all about all the trails. Yeah, all trails are your guide to the outdoors. We help folks get outside and explore the outdoors with hand-curated trail maps, photos, reviews, and anything that you might need to make decisions to get outside.

Rob Stevenson 2:14
Yeah, it’s like there are all these recommendation apps for like fun things to do in your city, or even more useful curated Yelp, and Ultros. Is that but like for the outside?

Doreen Ghafari 2:27
Or the outside? Right, exactly. Our simple goal is just to get everybody outside. You know, it’s pretty easy. I love it.

Rob Stevenson 2:33
I’ve used all the trails, I think it’s fantastic. If you’re trying to just get some sunshine, find somewhere to hike or what have you? It’s awesome. So I definitely recommend people use it. I’m not being paid to say that at all. You’re officially not just to reiterate, don’t come for me. But yeah, it’s great. People should definitely check it out. But I mean, you have been there a few years, you’ve overseen some pretty exciting growth, and you told me that you basically Forex the company, is that right?

Doreen Ghafari 3:00
More or less definitely was not a solo endeavor. But I joined alltrails, just shy of about three and a half years ago. And at the time that I joined, we were a team of about 4550 collet. And since then, we are just a little shy of 205 as of last count, so we have grown quite a bit.

Rob Stevenson 3:22
So what is the team? Like? How did you manage to hire all these people?

Doreen Ghafari 3:27
I mean, listen, alltrails is a super mission driven company. So I do think that we are very fortunate and the type of people that are attracted to come work here. But I also do think that we were able to set up some recruiting processes right from the start and just really work our funnels happy to kind of dive into more of the how but it was an absolute team effort we have all of our company invested in recruiting this is across all levels. Everybody’s involved, everybody knows the value and importance of hiring the right people. So I think just getting everybody excited about the recruiting process was super helpful and experiencing hyper-growth.

Rob Stevenson 4:08
So you had this advantage of people wanting to work for the company because they had experiences with the app, or they’ve shared the passion of getting people connected with the outdoors.

Doreen Ghafari 4:17
I think that’s true. Yeah. I think the whys as to why people come to all trails are deeply personal and profound. I think everyone sort of has a slightly different version of it. But it ultimately connects with our mission, which is connected to the outdoors. Right? So I think people come here because they’re really excited about spreading the Stoke and getting everybody outside. They want to educate others about nature and the benefits of spending time outdoors or they’re really into hiking or biking or you know, there’s just a very personal way as to why people are drawn to alltrails. And I think that’s definitely been something that we’ve been able to be fortunate enough to use in our recruiting efforts that resonates with people.

Rob Stevenson 4:57
So you joined the company with 45 -50 People mandate to grow a pretty huge mandate. By the way, where do you begin? And where does the Talent Team start to tackle this?

Doreen Ghafari 5:07
That’s a great question. You know, we started with our inbound, I think one of the big missions for us was just prioritizing how we manage our inbound funnel, I think one of the things that we don’t take lightly is that you know, alltrails isn’t beloved brand. And people tend to have really delightful experiences with the app and the site. And we wanted that, our recruiting efforts to be an extension of that, right, we want people who come to alltrails, to interview, even if they don’t get the job to still reflect fondly on their experience and interactions with our team. So we began by prioritizing the inbound pool and really going through and trying to evaluate the candidates that are coming to us and taking us out. And then from there, it was, for example, it’s like harder to fill role would have to go and prioritize our sourcing efforts, but really just building out and flushing out a successful pipeline for recruiting and working the process. I think that was a really important step in all of this is just make sure like, hey, we have a process and then working the process that works. So really understanding our metrics, understanding our different funnel stages, what are conversion rates? And then how do we get people through the funnel and into the offer stages?

Rob Stevenson 6:18
You hear certain things about Inbound talent, you know, sometimes they’re not always the most relevant, the most qualified, I imagine that varies company to company function to function. What was your experience with like, like, were you finding people who were a good fit? Or was it a lot of noise?

Doreen Ghafari 6:33
Definitely both right. Anytime that you open a role, you’re it’s kind of a mixed bag. So there does tend to be quite a bit of noise. And I think that’s on our team to be able to navigate through and look through the noise and find the people that most closely match the requirements that we’re looking for. I think there’s always specific roles that if you’re looking for a very specific skill set, you still need to rely on the power of outbound to go get that but with inbound, just to answer your question, yes, there’s always noise. But we have been able to have a lot of success with hiring people who have come to us and found

Rob Stevenson 7:11
Yeah, you have to look at it, right? You never know. It’s just a little bit like It’s like vintage thrift store shopping. It’s like, it’s gonna be mostly stuff you don’t want. But there’s like sometimes like, oh, wow, this is perfect. And I never would have found it anywhere else.

Doreen Ghafari 7:23
Totally. Totally. Yes, you definitely do find lots of great bits in Mt. You just have to put in the work.

Rob Stevenson 7:29
Yeah, find those diamonds in the rough. Yeah. So you make all these hires. And then once you have kind of made a hiring push, you’ve got you sounds like you’ve set up a process that sort of works here. Are there other like non butts in seats, things you’re focused on outside of just like, okay, beyond making hires, what are you looking at from just the people side of the job?

Doreen Ghafari 7:51
Yeah, I think, you know, butts in seats is kind of hurdle number one, I think for us, it’s really important to understand how that role that headcount is going to fit into the broader picture. And I think a lot of that legwork needs to happen before you even start recruiting, right? You need to sit with your managers and really have a fundamental understanding of what it is that we’re recruiting for, and why that why is really important. And I think it’s actually really important for recruiting teams to understand the why. And then you need to create sort of that employee career journey. So button, see is step number one, but then how are they going to be on boarded? How are they going to have growth within the company? What’s their experience going to be like, as an employee? So there’s a lot of work that needs to happen in tandem with the recruiting fees?

Rob Stevenson 8:37
50 people to 200 in terms of like, the relative size of the company, it’s massive, it’s a massive change, right? What were some, okay, like the growing pains, whether it was recruiting or just culturally, when you go through that relative, you know, for exiting the company,

Doreen Ghafari 8:52
you hit the nail on the head, right, for 50, to go to 200. It’s very different from, you know, 1000 to go to, yeah, something like that. For us, it was really just setting up our processes to scale, right, finding the right tooling, finding the right processes that are going to allow us to successfully hire on board, and then provide paths for people. I think that we spent a lot of time in this category of like, what are these must-have must prioritize tools frameworks that we need to have in place that are going to allow us to scale in really efficient, least painful ways possible. Scaling is hard, right? I think I’m sure you talk to a lot of people who would reiterate the same things. But how do we set up the scaffolding that’s going to allow us to do that and it might mean, you know, bringing on tooling that you’re premature to bring on right, you were like, Oh, it says we’re too small for this, but you kind of got to think a little few steps ahead and be like what’s gonna grow with us?

Rob Stevenson 9:54
Yeah, well, tell me about the scaffolding drain is it stainless steel, carbon fiber Tyvek bamboo? What You’re working with bamboo,

Doreen Ghafari 10:01
we’re I think there are a couple of big-ticket initiatives that we took on over the last few years. One was setting up our leveling and career framework, we tried to provide paths for people. But beyond that, we also tried to nail down a set of common core competencies that we evaluate performance through, they kind of differentiate between sort of the core ones that are shared and expected of everybody at all trails, but then we also have our functional competencies that are relevant to each role in specific function. That was a huge exercise. And then we also went through and did the income leveling exercise. So the people that we do have here, where do they fit within this broader scaffolding that’s in place? And then as we go on, and bring on more people, where are they gonna fit into this sort of shared framework that we have?

Rob Stevenson 10:57
The core competencies exercise is an interesting one, because to the untrained eye, or in this case, it’s like, Wait, we’re doing core competency mapping, but everyone has core competencies, right? Like, surely they were hired on account of being competent in a core fashion. So you assume that like, that’s the case, but what is the point of mapping it and really understanding what teams have a need?

Doreen Ghafari 11:20
I think the importance is just a gives us a common framework and a shared language across the company, right? This way we can evaluate a director on the design team with against or with the same director-level role on a marketing team, like what are those shared values? And I think a good place to start is reflecting on the company’s values, right? What are the values that we share as a company? And then how do we evaluate performance through those values? The functional competencies are arguably easier, right? Because it’s like, oh, well, how well can you code or, you know, how well can you do business analytics

Rob Stevenson 11:58
is like a zero or a one, right? You can’t or you can’t?

Doreen Ghafari 12:00
Exactly. So I think, you know, with the core competencies, we try our best to have it tied back into the company values. And then just Yeah, provide people with that shared framework and a shared language

Rob Stevenson 12:13
is the idea that the being able to code or not, that’s a more easy thing to evaluate for a hiring manager.

Doreen Ghafari 12:21
Absolutely right? That it’s highly tangible, you can get a really good sense of that through the recruiting process, you you can have an exercise or you can do a pair programming, but the more non tangible things, for example, things like impact, will how do you really get to the core of that through an interview process, but not only just that, how do you have the shared framework where everybody within the interview panel understands what we mean when we say impact,

Rob Stevenson 12:53
I really like the approach of treating values as if they are a core competency because they are what it does is it serves to take company values company culture out of the realm of this like nebulous, laminated poster in the lunch area, you know, into something into something that actually might like drives behavior and drives recruiting and drives you know, people show up to work so what did you come up with? What were what did you decide were like the the values that you were going to try and index on?

Doreen Ghafari 13:20
You know, we have a few different core values. Things like spreading the Stoke all are welcome.

Rob Stevenson 13:27
What spreading the Stoke,

Doreen Ghafari 13:28
getting everybody excited about all trails and our mission, right, getting not just all trails, our mission, but really just the outdoors, like get everyone stoked about getting outside.

Rob Stevenson 13:40
This duck, I’m dying, of course, it’s like if all of your users are hikers, you’re gonna use the word stoke.

Doreen Ghafari 13:47
See, it falls in love. It makes sense. Yeah. But yeah, just like how do we take those and then turn them into like actionable ways that people can show up to work every day? So we know some of our core values or core competencies, I should say are things like communication, obviously, that’s a really obvious one that everyone should consider. But things like embracing change, things like having impact, I think those are all things you can really use to evaluate both candidates but also performance, right? Like, I think there should be a lot of, hopefully alignment between the way that you interview and the way that you measure performance when someone’s here.

Rob Stevenson 14:26
Yeah, there’s so many core values that are just I feel like obvious and therefore not useful. You know, it’s like, honesty isn’t a value. It’s like, well, sure, like we’re not no company’s gonna be like, Yeah, we don’t care if you’re honest or not, right? Like, that’s just a basic, you know, showing up as a human being but for you, how do you make it so that these are things that are actionable, that things that you can that may not be taken for granted, right in someone just being good at their job, and that you can actually can make their way into performance reviews?

Doreen Ghafari 14:56
I think providing concrete examples is a A good way to tackle that, for example, where we do say things like communication, well, what does it mean to be a good communicator, each one of these levels, just going through an exercise of defining that, alright, well, in associate level, you’re able to communicate with your team, with somebody overseeing you well, all right, when you make it to an individual contributor level, you’re more autonomous, you don’t need that support, because you have now developed those skills on your own to be able to communicate to your team or cross functionally in an autonomous way. So just like providing real world exam, it doesn’t have to be these like big theoretical things. It’s just like taking what you do every single day. And applying it to that it doesn’t have to be philosophical.

Rob Stevenson 15:45
Yeah. So you mentioned that part of doing that was so you could apply it to performance management. Now, was performance management already kind of in place? Or is that another Dorian Ghaffari original policy.

Doreen Ghafari 16:00
It’s a team wide effort. But there was not a very robust or really too much framework for performance management at the time. To be fair to the team here, I think they always were very bought into the fact that people should be having regular conversations about how things were going. But I don’t know if it was necessarily codified in like performance management, where we were managing things on like Google Docs, or things like that. So we had to basically build out a whole framework and a whole system for how we want to do performance management. We have done multiple iterations at this point with different rating scales and different approaches to it. And I think finally, really, in the last six months, the last two review cycles, have we gotten to a place where we hope to stay for a little bit and really just work on refining cycle over cycle, we brought our rating scale down. Finally, we have the general idea of our competencies for each role. And we want to be able to measure that longitudinally over time, like, Does this make sense? Is this helping us kind of accomplish our goal? So yes, to answer your long winded way of answering your question, we did have to set up some of those processes from scratch.

Rob Stevenson 17:17
What does that mean to be able to set it up so it serves you longitudinally?

Doreen Ghafari 17:21
you want to be ideally, in my mind, measuring the same things time over time, right? When you’re going through a period of rapid growth, you’re oftentimes not doing things the same way over and over again, right? Because what fit us at 50 is certainly not going to fit us at 100, it’s certainly not going to put us at 150. So there were a lot of changes, like optimizations happening. But we’re finally at a place where we’re like, Okay, this has worked for the last couple of times. And now we can really dive into the data that comes out of these performance review cycles, we’ve gone through this huge exercise of figuring out what our competencies are. All right, cool. Now, can we measure whether or not that’s having a true impact on performance? For example, is there a correlation between the people that score highest on communication to the same people who score the highest and their performance rating? Or is there a positive correlation or negative correlation? So now we get to do some of those exciting stuff like, hey, we have this whole framework, but does it actually work?

Rob Stevenson 18:22
Yeah. Is there a correlation?

Doreen Ghafari 18:24
TBD. In the middle, I’m trying to figure I hope so for our sake.

Rob Stevenson 18:29
Right, right. Well, no matter what you need to know, right, whether it’s like working or needs to change, but So yeah, this is the idea that, like those core competencies were developed under the assumption, or the hope that they would be correlated with performance. And so now you have to look back and be like, Well, are they

Doreen Ghafari 18:45
exactly is it true is all that that we are manifesto that we put together? does it actually work? And I think it’s really exciting, right? Because then you can go back and validate yourself and say, Hey, we were right there. Ooh, this one doesn’t work at all. We need to revisit it.

Rob Stevenson 18:59
Yeah. And this is a more rigorous way to try and duplicate top performers, right? Like recruiters forever have been like, so tell me about the you know, who’s the best member of your team? Oh, it’s during, okay, well, what makes Tareen so good? I need to know that so that when I go in source, I can be trying to find more Dorians? You know, you won’t find more Dorians there’s only one. But now, it’s like, okay, let’s not just have this be a kind of fluffy conversation where it’s like, Oh, who’s your best performer and what makes them so good? And the hiring manager kind of like leans back in their chair and like, you know, I think it’s because it’s like, okay, like, that’s very nice. But can we actually put some rigor around those can we actually measure it sounds like that’s the plan.

Doreen Ghafari 19:43
That’s the hope anyway. And I think the other benefit from all this is that you’re able to quantify for everybody what good looks like so when we say all right, well, we want everybody to be performing and a meets or exceeds, we can give everybody a really concrete case study on what it looks like to be at an exceeds. And it’s not vague. It’s hopefully not biased. And it’s based and rooted in like performance metrics that tie back to the business outcomes. I think that the exciting part there is just really being able to provide both candidates and internal employees with concrete examples of what good looks like and why.

Rob Stevenson 20:20
Yeah, and that is for what’s funny that it’s just for everyone’s benefit, right? It’s for like the existing team, the hiring manager, the folks who are going to be measured this way. It’s like, Hey, here’s the rubric upon which you will be scored, basically. Alright, and then the recruiting team can take it out to market when they’re sourcing, you can apply it to the people who are in bound, like all of it, it just, I don’t know, it’s just like, this is this recurring theme on the show, and I feel like I need to call it every time it happens. But it’s just like the broadening responsibility of the talent Pro. It’s just like, the more strategic you are, the more you realize, like, oh, well, we’re worried about butts and seats, like, it isn’t just that it feels like it’s all connected, right?

Doreen Ghafari 20:56
It is, it really is all connected. And that’s why I personally feel really, really strongly about the fact that recruiting in people teams need to be in lockstep with each other. That’s not separate functions, it’s actually like to have the very same circle. Yeah, you have to think about this. Everything from like a bird’s eye point of view, you can’t get too caught up and just like recruiting funnel, metrics, butts and seats without having the other gut check of like, well, how is this going to translate when someone’s here? And how can we provide like a really holistic employee journey for someone from candidacy to the time that they decide to move on? Hopefully, in five, six years from now? I look back fondly on their career.

Rob Stevenson 21:40
Yeah. This is why I think the shifts to VP people as opposed to VTA VP recruiting is apropos, right? Because it’s, I think it’s just understanding that like, this is part of the role no matter what, and even if you’re not gold on it explicitly, it does affect your ability to do your job well. So someone who’s thoughtful about their role is going to make this their responsibility either way,

Doreen Ghafari 22:04
I don’t think so I think it’s better to have sort of that holistic strategy, rather than just really getting super granular with like, this is just who you are. This is just people. And I also do think you need buy in from the company at large, like I think people functions apply to everyone, right? As a manager, you are also responsible for this as a executive, you’re also responsible for this. It’s everyone’s responsibility.

Rob Stevenson 22:32
Yeah, it totally is. And I feel like if you speak to non talent function, they’ll all admit that Right? They’ll they’ll all Greg Oh, yes. Well, people are our priority. No one’s gonna say that they’re not a priority. But it sounds different when someone is really invested. And it’s feeling to me, like alltrails is understands that is invested. What kind of gave you that sense, as you were, over time, maybe or even just when you were initially evaluating materials, that they can walk the walk, but they’re not just merely saying that they care about talent?

Doreen Ghafari 23:01
That’s a good question. And you nailed it. I feel very fortunate that our team is very invested in both recruiting and people operations. You know, I don’t have to convince people that this is important. I think they fully understand it. And I think it’s because they see the value, right? Like, I do think when you bring somebody in and unlocks that much more, we can do that much more with the product, or we can hit our goals this much faster. It’s not lost on people that great hires are huge unlocks. Yeah, I do have to say I feel very fortunate about our executive leadership team here, all of our directors and hiring managers, everyone’s pretty bought into this whole process.

Rob Stevenson 23:43
Is it a matter of like the time they commit? Or how do you know, I guess is what I’m asking.

Doreen Ghafari 23:48
It’s the questions they ask the willingness to move things around to interview, the advocacy that I see on managers behalf for their employees, the advocacy that I see on managers behalf for headcount, like their thoughtfulness around asking for headcount. And the asks that they put in, they sat through and evaluated, like, what is this person going to do? And how are they going to grow? Just gives me a lot of confidence that it’s intentional, and it’s mindful?

Rob Stevenson 24:18
Yeah, I’m glad you explained that, because I feel like it’s really important for talent pros to tune into that kind of thing. And if they’re seeing it great, and if you’re not, you either need to do some pretty serious internal PR, right? Or, I don’t know if I was, put it in like terms that makes sense for my skill set. If I was at a company, and I feel like they didn’t really care about the marketing. I would be like, Okay, it’s either my job to change their mind, or I should just leave like, I have too much, like too much confidence in the value of what I do, to have to convince people of it to it’s like, no, I’m not going to persuade you that this is important. Like I’m going to, I’ll go to someone who already gets that part of it so you can kind of decide how much grace you give the organism question and I would encourage people to sort of reflect on Okay, how much is my company really bought into talent?

Doreen Ghafari 25:05
Totally. I think those are really, especially for people, leaders like going in somewhere. Those are really great interview questions to ask. It’s like, hey, where does this fit into the overall vision of the company? Where does the people department fit? I think it sends a lot of signals when people departments are reporting into C level executives or larger organization like VP layers versus other departments that are more revenue generating or whatnot. I think that does send signals of like, how important as all of this to the broader business?

Rob Stevenson 25:39
Yeah, that’s a good question. Tell me about a time when you moved a more important meeting to have an interview

Doreen Ghafari 25:46
this morning?

Rob Stevenson 25:49
No, I mean, like when you’re interviewing, like, ask the CEO that right, like, let’s find out how invested you are. I feel like the VP of people interviewing for a role. It should be like a car salesman going to buy a car, right? It’s like, Oh,

Doreen Ghafari 26:01
totally.

Rob Stevenson 26:02
I know how this is supposed to go. Here’s what I actually need to know.

Doreen Ghafari 26:05
Exactly. Yeah. I mean, that’s such a great example us, we have like, this happens so frequently at alltrails, where we’ll just be pinging our CFO or CEO or CMO and be like, Hey, could you move this one meeting? I need to throw someone on your calendar. And it’s always like, yes, or not quite, but I can make this time available. Just that it does resonate with everyone the importance of recruiting and hiring.

Rob Stevenson 26:32
Great. Sounds like you got it made. Well, during here, we are creeping up on optimal a podcast length. And so you know, I don’t like to just end things I feel like we should you delicately thread the needle here at the end of the episode. So I guess, you know, when I met you, I think you were you were even just beginning your recruiting career. And now look at your VP of people. So I was hoping you might share some advice for the folks out there who are early ish in their career who are looking to uplevel take on management go after those director head of VP roles, what advice would you give those folks?

Doreen Ghafari 27:06
Oh, my gosh, Robert, is it’s just like so flattering. The advice that I would have, honestly, is figure out what niche you’re sort of most passionate about within this space. I don’t think my particular path was very linear or predictable. I started out in straight up like agency recruiting. And then I where we met I worked with hired for a long time. And then I went on to teamable now and so it just, it wasn’t like If This Then That it wasn’t a linear path. I think what helps me actually tremendously in my career was the exposure that I got to a lot of different ways that people do talent at hired because we were on the inside really servicing a whole host of different clients. And that allowed me to actually think about Alright, well when you’re setting up for hyperscale or if you’re a startup just looking to recruit like what are best practices, trying on a bunch of different things like I really don’t think there is truly a one size fits all for anyone in this space. I ended up going back to school and getting a master’s in OD and that really opened my eyes to this emerging quote unquote, field and the bodies of research out there that are available that really help us like build organizations in a successful way. But I’d say the advice I would have is Don’t think of your career as this linear thing. It’s more like to bring it back into an alternative example it’s more of a bouldering experience rather than a linear ladder.

Rob Stevenson 28:40
Yeah, yeah. I love that metaphor. It’s not a straight line be open to the next thing I don’t know it’s gonna take you in weird places but if you index on like the Unison values and the things you care about and curiosity, I think you’ll be happy.

Doreen Ghafari 28:51
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

Rob Stevenson 28:53
Well during this has been a delight and come back anytime I love having you on. Let’s not leave it to be three and a half years before the next time you come on the podcast. Yeah,

Doreen Ghafari 29:01
I love that I will take you up on your offer. Rob, it was so good to see you.

Rob Stevenson 29:08
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