Jodi Cohen

Tombras Director of TA Jodi Cohen

Jodi CohenDirector of Talent Acquisition

Here to talk tales of acquisition with me is Jodi Cohen, Director of Talent Acquisition at Tombras. We dive into her journey as a recruiter and how she ended up in-house at Tombras. She shares significant insights about the difference between working for an agency versus working in-house, how she brought urgency and speed to Tombras, and how she keeps moving quickly while putting processes in place. Jodi shares her thoughts on the roles and responsibilities of a director of talent acquisition, and why being hands-on is essential! We also discuss sending the no-update-update email and her thoughts on sending a rejection email.

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:06.1] RS: Welcome to Talk Talent to Me, a podcast featuring the most elite talent leaders on the frontline’s modern recruitment.

[0:00:12.8] FEMALE: We actually want to understand the themes of someone’s life, we want to understand how they make decisions, where are they willing to take risks and what it looks like when they fail.

[0:00:22.7] RS: No holds barred, completely off the cuff interviews with directors of recruitment, VPs of global talent, CHROs, and everyone in between.

[0:00:31.1] FEMALE: Once I went through the classes and the trainings, I got the certifications through diversity and inclusion, I still felt like something was missing.

[0:00:39.7] MALE: Talent acquisition, it’s a fantastic career, you are trusted by the organization, you get to work with the C-Suite and the security at the front desk and everybody in between, and everybody knows you.

[0:00:53.0] RS: I’m your host, Rob Stevenson and you’re about to hear the best in the biz, Talk Talent to Me.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:00:59.2] RS: Here on the show to talk talent to me today is the director of talent acquisition over at Tombras, Jodi Cohen. Jodi, welcome to the podcast. How the heck are you today?

[0:01:08.7] JC: Good, thanks so much for having me, Rob.

[0:01:10.9] RS: So pleased you’re here. What’s been going on for you this week?

[0:01:13.9] JC: Wow, this week, we have actually picked up a little bit, sort of the storm before the calm of the holidays.

[0:01:20.1] RS: So you’re trying to squeeze things in here before everyone disappears for the holiday, what does that look like for you?

[0:01:25.5] JC: Exactly, no pun intended but get everything kind of wrapped up with a nice little bow, so then everyone could enjoy their time off and then come back with some new hires and fresh new projects when we get back.

[0:01:37.9] RS: What is it you’re trying to wrap up?

[0:01:39.1] JC: We have a few positions that I’d love to have filled prior and then just kind of a few projects that have been on my to-do list like updating job descriptions and a few other HR cleanup projects.

[0:01:53.2] RS: Got it. Is there any 2023 planning happening or has it already happened or is it yet to happen, where are you with next year’s plan?

[0:02:02.3] JC: We start planning a little bit more at the beginning of 2023.

[0:02:05.1] RS: Got it, so that is yet to come. Anyway, I wanted to see how you’re doing at this very moment but we shouldn’t jump right into the deep end here, Jodi, we should get to know you a little bit but thank you again for doing this. You have stolen your son’s gaming headset which I’m very appreciative of, you brought out the big guns for this and it sounds great.

So thank you for going the distance to get some hardware. So excited to chat with you, let’s learn about you a little bit, Jodi. Would you mind sharing with us your journey and then we can get into your role at Tombras?

[0:02:32.7] JC: Yeah, absolutely. So I have been in recruiting since 1998. I started entry level and tech recruiting for a national recruiting firm, this was the .com days and the Y2K stuff. So spent 20 years on the recruiting agency side and then came internal at Tombras and Tombras is one of the largest full-service independent advertising agencies in the US. We’ve been in business since 1946. So started in tech recruiting, then former colleague of mine recruited me to a boutique firm that specialized in advertising and creative recruiting. Fell in love with the industry, didn’t know anything about it prior to that.

So was there for a few years and when I had my first child, I wanted to be able to be home and work. So I went to a national firm where I could focus on east coast clients which allowed me to have my afternoons off since I was on the west coast and most of my clients were advertising agencies or PR firms, which is how Tombras and I became involved in the first place.

So I started working with them in ‘07 as a client when they were like 70 employees and looking to build out their development practice and then over the years, I was fortunate enough to remain working with them and help them grow and about four years ago, they needed to bring the position in-house because they were gosh, probably 200, 250 then. So it’s just sort of a natural progression, so I came over as Director of Talent Acquisition.

[0:04:07.9] RS: Was there a reason you hadn’t made the shift from agency to in-house sooner?

[0:04:14.0] JC: Well, a few reasons, yes. First of all, agents, the other side, recruiting agency was all I know and for anyone listening who started on the recruiting agency side, coming on this side is almost looked at like, not positively. I don’t know why, I will say I think getting training and starting your career on the recruiting industry side is the way to go for sure, you learn all sides of the business.

So I always kind of looked at this side as something I was never going to explore and then probably a few years prior to coming onboard with Tombras, I started getting that interest, wanting to try this side and Tombras was always a company I was really passionate about and had a great relationship with. So I always kind of knew if I was going to do it, this was one of the few companies I’d like to do it for.

[0:05:05.6] RS: Yeah, the company for whom you hired in the agency to in-house at that company pipeline, I think makes a lot of sense. You get like this trial run with people you get to work with them a little bit and understand how they do work and what kind of folks they hire and all that.

So on their side, they know exactly what they’re getting, you know? By bringing you on. So clearly, Tombras, you know, the opportunity in the company was exciting to you but was there something about the lifestyle of the role going in-house that was appealing to you, why did you finally make the move?

[0:05:35.3] JC: Yeah, I think after 20 years, the cycle was starting to get to me a little bit, the feast or famine if you will. I’ve been through on the agency side two solid recessions, you know, my firs tone was that .com bust, which was insane and then obviously, the recession in ‘08. So I was kind of ready to not go through that again and being on the recruiting agency side is a sales role and I love the business development side. That part I do actually miss a lot but again, there’s times where you’re doing amazing and everything’s falling into place and times where it’s not and it was definitely starting to get a little weary on me and I was taking it home a bit and just kind of ready to switch to something with less ups and downs.

[0:06:24.6] RS: Got it, got it, yeah. Less of a roller coaster.

[0:06:27.6] JC: Yes.

[0:06:28.6] RS: So you’re a few years into the in-house role now. Is there no looking back for you? Are you really pleased with this setup?

[0:06:35.8] JC: 100%. What’s interesting though is I have never been as busy and again, I see it as very positive so I’m hardly complaining but never been as busy as I was about a year ago and I don’t think if I didn’t have that experience from the recruiting agency side and having that hustle that’s now been ingrained in me, I wouldn’t have been successful.

[0:07:01.4] RS: Yeah, I’m curious about what specifically about working an agency kind of lends itself to the in-house role because surely, the process of you know, filling roles, all the stuff about like sourcing and phone screening, that stuff is probably the same, right? What do you think serves you well in addition to that?

[0:07:17.2] JC: That sense of urgency that again, was ingrained in me because when you’re in the recruiting agency side, you snooze, you lose. You’re going up against their internal team, any other recruiters they’re using. So time is of the essence and I will have that mentality always. So when a role opens up at Tombras, I view it as completely urgent and that’s how I operate.

I think that’s one of the biggest lessons that may be if you came up only on the internal side, you wouldn’t necessarily have that urgency, that sense of urgency and then the other thing is I think it has given me the ability to see the whole picture, really understand a candidate’s motivations, ask some questions that I don’t know if I’d otherwise know to answer.

Not being afraid to ask questions like, “Tell me about your other opportunities. Why do you like Tombras better than XYZ company or why don’t you?” or asking some of those questions, asking about their timeline, being able to read between the lines when I’m not getting the information. So I think coming from the recruiting agency side has really helped me see the full picture.

[0:08:31.5] RS: When it comes to urgency and speed, how did you bring that to Tombras? Were you looking for ways to speed up the hiring process?

[0:08:39.0] JC: When I first came on, no, there weren’t that many positions so, it was, wouldn’t say easy, but it wasn’t nearly as challenging, it’s like I said, it’s kind of just the way I operate. I did look at putting some processes in place because you know again, we were in business since 1946 and up until not that long ago, our president of our company and interviewed every single candidate but that was doable because we were hiring at most, 10 people a year.

So that was completely reasonable and completely manageable. Obviously, that changed pretty quickly. So it was just putting some basic processes in place, how I was submitting candidates, how I was getting feedback from the hiring managers, what is the process, onboarding, working with HR to create an onboarding process. None of that had been established because it just wasn’t needed and that all of a sudden, it was and then all of a sudden, we were onboarding more people in one week than we used to in one year.

[0:09:42.9] RS: Got it. So what kind of process did you put in?

[0:09:44.7] JC: So what we actually just implemented a new ATS so that’s exciting. My predecessor had actually implemented one that we outgrew. So we just implemented a new ATS, so we’re in the process of that, which will help but in the meantime, it’s kind of a placeholder. We had to do things like Google sheets just to keep track of the candidate flow because our old ATS didn’t do that.

Things like the feedback process from the hiring managers, how we were collecting it and then what was happening with that information. Skills assessments for certain roles, again, when are we doing that, making sure we’re doing that with best practices in mind. Offer letters and offer approvals, so all of those areas needed some process implemented.

[0:10:29.6] RS: Got it, how do you keep moving quickly while putting process in place?

[0:10:35.7] JC: So part of it definitely goes to still having that personal relationship with the candidates, that really plays a lot into it. Obviously, well now, we have our new ATS which helps us but prior to that, we had kind of a spreadsheet system that kept track of everyone we had in process and would pretty much look at that every three minutes of the day. It’s pretty much where I spent all my time.

But going back to that personal relationship, I am still very reluctant to pass on any responsibilities through the hiring process. So unless it’s something like scheduling, which is more back end, anything that’s communication with the candidate, I’m still going to take on because that make sure nothing gets lost in the system that ensures that that relationship with the candidate is going to be maintained throughout the process.

I know what messaging is happening. So that’s a lot of what we’ve done as a team because I know my counterparts do the same. That’s what we’ve done as a team to really make sure the process stays moving as well as that communication with the hiring managers, making sure we’re saying, “What was your feedback?” or getting the feedback if we haven’t and then once we get the feedback, making sure we know what they’re expecting for a next step or telling them what the next step is and that’s how we’ve been doing it.

[0:11:58.3] RS: Can I ask you about the, maybe like a philosophical question about the role of director of talent acquisition? As you have more recruiters on the team underneath you, as you have more roles to fill, do you think that the director of talent acquisition should always have a role they personally are working to fill or do you think they should become just a manager who looks at strategy and oversees the recruiters as they fill the roles?

[0:12:27.6] JC: You can probably guess how I’m going to answer this. I think 100%, we should be hands on. My role at least in our company is not a strategic only role. It’s definitely strategic and I a also looking at the big picture all the time and working with our president and CEO and VP of HR to continue to improve the process and work on the strategy but I would never expect to not be hands on at any stage of my career.

[0:12:55.4] RS: Yeah, I think you see that in other areas of the business too, like your VP of sales ought to pop up with a huge deal, you know? Once a quarter or something or your CMO should, “Hey, I had this idea for an awesome campaign we should try.” Just to, I don’t know, kind of prove that they can do it a little bit and just like contribute in a meaningful level.

[0:13:14.8] JC: Yes. So much to say on this actually. First of all, if you are trying to scale a team, it’s the best way to teach is to like you said, have the VP of sales bring in a big deal and hopefully they’re bringing someone along with them to see.

Also, how are you ever going to stay hands on with the trends if you’re not in the trenches? If I hadn’t been hands on in the last 10 years, well, or I guess longer than that, I mean, I’d still be faxing a resume because I wouldn’t know that you’re supposed to email them, right?

Even just little things like, I was on a call the other day with a candidate and my daughter as a teenager happened to hear me and I said to the candidate, “So that’s the 411” and she looks at me and says, “What’s 411?”

[0:13:58.2] RS: What the hell is 411?

[0:14:00.2] JC: And I was like, “Oh my gosh, people don’t know anymore.” Little things like that. I mean, that’s a small example but I see things like that all the time with candidates in terms of technologies, in terms of trends. I mean, COVID with their motivations for why people are looking for new jobs now or wanting to make a change, that has all changed. So if you’re not hands on, you’re going to be shooting in the dark.

[0:14:24.0] RS: Yeah, that’s a good example.

[0:14:26.2] JC: Plus, I love it. So, I’m always going to be hands on.

[0:14:28.2] RS: Yeah, that’s your thing. You ever want to scratch that itch, right? Like presumably, you have stuck around in the industry that’s long because you enjoy it. I feel like that is an important part of being elevated into management is still getting to do the thing that you really like and are good at, right?

[0:14:42.6] JC: Yeah and I also don’t see how you can ever mentor a team or lead a team if you’re sort of not, well, I hate to use the word willing, because I really enjoy what I do but if you’re not willing to do the work, I can’t imagine asking someone else to do it.

[0:14:58.1] RS: Yeah, I think that’s good leadership is, “Look, I’m not going to ask you to do anything that I wouldn’t do or that I can’t do in general” but yeah, just particularly in recruiting as technology enables it and it kind of changes so quickly, you risk just kind of being completely left behind if you’re not also hearing what candidates are saying and then what is like the mindset of someone looking for a role.

[0:15:20.6] JC: Yup.

[0:15:21.2] RS: So for you then, as you are hiring for the roles on your plate, are you soliciting that from candidates? How are you trying to learn about what it means to be looking for a job in the current state of things here and the current career, sort of searching experience?

[0:15:35.8] JC: Yeah and that’s changed drastically in the last just six months, right? So again, one of my favorite questions to ask candidates is, “Why are you looking and what are you looking for?” So much comes out in that, so what are their motivations you tend to hear frustrations pretty quickly. I think a common frustration across the board with recruiting, no matter what the market is the whole kind of ghosting, non-responsiveness piece.

So I pay attention to that and that’s something I take a lot of heart too. I also do my best to put myself in the candidate shoes and I always say, every recruiter should go through the job search process. I don’t know if there is an ideal way to do it when you’re not actually looking for a job but if you could go with the process is just a regular candidate that some kind of a networking event but a regular candidate, I think it can be very humbling and you can see what candidates are going through.

The fact that they’ve had to wait 24, 48 hours for an unanswered email to hear if there’s a next step, that could be weighing on them for 24, 48 hours and if we can just send them a quick email and say, “I don’t have an update for you but the team thought the call went well. I am waiting on an update” even if you can do that, that is going to go so far.

So I think it is just putting yourself in the candidate’s shoes, understanding what their motivations are, understanding why you guys are talking in the first place. Is it because they were laid off or is it because they are just super excited about your company and they’ve always wanted to work there and you have a job that might be a great fit. Whatever it is, pay attention to their motivations.

[0:17:18.7] RS: Yeah, I am a big fan of the non-update update, just to remind people that, “Hey, we haven’t forgotten about you. I know that you are in this limbo” and probably, you know, when you are a candidate and you are in process, you tell people in your life like, “I had this interview. I thought it went really well. I hope I get this one. This company is really cool” and then that person asks you, “Hey, have you heard from the company?”

You have to be like, “No” and you know, it just doesn’t feel good. It feels like, “Oh, I maybe, did I blow it? Am I not getting this? Are they going to give me an offer?” You have no idea where you stand. There is no transparency, no clarity, it can be an uncomfortable position to be in for sure.

[0:17:53.9] JC: Yeah, I sent three of those today and I’ve learned they’re not my favorite email to send because I want to tell them something but again, I’d rather do that than not and it just says, “Hey, I thought I was going to have an update for you. I don’t, we’re still really interested. Let me know if anything has changed.” That’s all you can do and it’s genuine but I can’t do anything else and I think it’s very easy when you don’t have an update to just not send anything.

[0:18:19.6] RS: Yeah.

[0:18:20.6] JC: Again, the person’s wondering, waiting or they say, “I guess they are not interested in me” and they go accept an offer elsewhere and you finally get that update at the end of the week and they’re like, “Oh, well, since I didn’t hear from you, I didn’t think you were interested” and now you blew it.

[0:18:34.3] RS: Yeah, exactly and that email that takes like 60 seconds to write or you could write a template like you could make a Gmail, I am a huge fan of Gmail templates and then you click twice and it just says something like, “Hey” and you change their name out. “I just wanted to follow up here. I don’t have an update. We are winning on a couple of things surely but I haven’t forgotten about you. I’ll get back to you just as soon as I can” right?

[0:18:56.2] JC: Yep.

[0:18:56.4] RS: You could send that out to everyone and only change their name and that would give someone a little sense of encouragement, right? It’s like, “Look, you’re in process, this is still happening. It is just not happening as fast as maybe you would like.”

[0:19:07.8] JC: Absolutely. It’s the easiest thing in the world. It is just a matter of doing it and again, I think we all like to have a resolution, which I think is part of why those emails don’t go out but they do go a long way and again, thinking of the candidate, now they’re at least saying, “Okay, they haven’t forgotten about me” or it is still alive or it might bring up a question that they have. They might come back and say, “Well, I was dragging my feet but I do have another offer. So just curious.”

Okay, now you have that information and sometimes that information can be really helpful because we’ve all had those offers that we’re trying to get out and we need some little bit of urgency to have someone at the company pull the trigger and sometimes that piece of information that they have another offer and we’re going to lose them is just what we need.

[0:19:56.1] RS: Exactly that. So with regard to the template thing, have you heard of Chat GPT?

[0:20:01.7] JC: No, what is it?

[0:20:03.2] RS: Okay, so this is like all my Twitter feed can talk about, everyone in like the AI space is just totally a buzz word but this company called Open AI released this, I guess it’s like a chat bot but they say that it is optimizing language models for dialogue and you can kind of ask it a really advanced question. You can be like, “Hey ChatGPT, how would I make an app to connect with dog walkers in my neighborhood?” and then it would give you like an outline of some steps you can take.

Then you could follow up and say, “What would the code for the app look like?” and then it will give you the code, right? So it’s this really advanced AI model that can sort of answer questions in a nuanced way that like you wish Google would for example.

[0:20:45.1] JC: Yeah.

[0:20:45.4] RS: So anyway, I have been playing around with it nonstop in the last few days and I ask it things like, “Write me a content plan to launch a new podcast on blank topic” and just seeing what it says. Anyway, with regard to that email template comment I just made, I am going to ask it right now. Okay, “Write an email template to let a candidate know they are still in process and there is no update” enter. Let’s see what comes up with.

Okay, here it is. “Dear candidate, thank you for your patience as we continue to review your application. We wanted to let you know that your application is still in process and we have not yet reached a decision. We understand that waiting can be frustrating but we assure you that we are carefully reviewing all applications and giving each candidate the consideration they deserve. We will be in touch as soon as we have any updates to share. Thank you again for your interest in the company. We appreciate your patience and understanding. Sincerely, your name, your title, company.”

[0:21:41.8] JC: Not bad.

[0:21:42.7] RS: That’s pretty good.

[0:21:43.0] JC: Yeah. I’d say my only compliant especially for a company our size is I think that is great for if there is high volume that would sound super strange coming from me to one of my candidates because we’re usually pretty close I would say on canned. However like I’m looking back at one of the emails I sent today that’s similar and basically said the same thing but more in my tone, kind of saying, “I know I sound like a broken record but I still don’t have an update.”

“Has anything changed on your side? We’re still very interested” that’s all I got for you basically. So saying kind of the same thing and I like that it acknowledged about the patience. I may add that. I may have you send that to me because I like that line because I was definitely eluding to that but I didn’t quite say that.

[0:22:30.7] RS: Yeah, it does sound a little sterile, the ChatGPT one for sure but I like that part in the middle as well that’s like, “We know this is frustrating” like I get it, like it is empathizing a little bit. It’s like that’s why I am sending this email because I know that it’s frustrating, right? But this is the thing with AI tools. It is not going to take your job, it is meant to help you to be better at your job.

So if you were like, “Look, it will take me a while to come up with this email idea” then you can drop it in ChatGPT, copy paste and edit it, make it more yourself and it would just help you do your job a little faster.

[0:23:01.7] JC: Yeah, no that’s good because like I said, I like that line about the patience. So definitely gave me a good idea.

[0:23:07.4] RS: It’s well pointed out though that you should not lose a personal touch like I don’t know, I think an email like that is too sterile would probably do more harm than good.

[0:23:17.9] JC: Yeah and especially again, for our company our size, you know we’re approaching 500 employees, so we don’t need a lot of canned emails but again, I like the overall idea of the message.

[0:23:28.6] RS: Yeah, definitely. So folks out there consider the non-update update, automate is as much as you can without sounding like a robot I guess is the advice we’re giving.

[0:23:38.6] JC: Well and I think in all situations like that also even when I send rejection emails. Again, probably my least favorite part of the job. I don’t want to reject people. It is not a fun email to send but I try to add maybe just one thing personal into it if I can, maybe something we talked about or maybe something I know they talked about with the hiring manager. If I can, I try to.

First of all, I do care and it does make it more personal and we have so many great employees who were not hired the first time for one reason or another. Maybe they turned us down, maybe they weren’t right for the job at the time. We have a lot of employees who didn’t work out round one. So I think that is an easy way to keep a good relationship going and again, just putting yourself in the candidate’s shoes is a little bit easier to hear I think.

[0:24:27.4] RS: Yeah, the rejection email is a great opportunity to show some humanity I guess, right? And then to kind of be with someone there in a tender time when they are getting rejected, which sucks like no matter which way you spin it. Could you kind of give an example like what would you say to someone if you were writing an email to them, to someone that didn’t get the job and you wanted to soften the blow, how would you approach that?

[0:24:49.1] JC: It depends. You do always have to be careful because sometimes you set yourself up too. If there is something tangible that I can give them like we just really needed experience with a medical client or something, if there is something tangible like that, I will always say that because a lot of times they kind of know that is coming too.

If it’s sort of like they were just the second choice versus the person that we hired, sometimes I’ll just let them know, “Hey, it was a really tough decision for the team. They just met someone who was just a little bit more fitting for the role” or something to that effect but I will let them know how much the team really like meeting them and I try to be as genuine as possible.

When if it is something that I hope maybe we can find another role for them, I will definitely try and direct them to another role by saying, “Hey, I am expecting another role in this same opening, please keep your eye on our website. I will make a note to myself to touch base with you as well but if you don’t hear from me first, please check in anytime.”

So sometimes I will do that as well and then there’s some candidates where there is nothing really you can’t get personal and then they get just kind of the basic courteous, “I’m sorry but thank you.”

[0:26:03.6] RS: Yeah, does the conversation typically end after the rejection email? Is there a back and forth?

[0:26:10.1] JC: You know, it kind of depends. In fact, I mean, here is when I got today and just you know, thank you for the update, too bad to hear but I would love to be kept in mind for future opportunities. So I mean, that’s all you can ask for.

[0:26:22.6] RS: That is kind of as good as you can hope. The reason I ask is because in the example where someone doesn’t want to send a rejection email and I have been the recipient or non-recipient, I should say of just like the loop was just never closed with me, right? I was just kind of ghosted. When someone doesn’t send a rejection email, do you think it’s laziness? Are they afraid of confrontation?

Is it just like, “Oh, why should I close the loop? Why should I invest any more time? We’re not hiring them” what do you think is going on there?

[0:26:51.2] JC: Yeah, I think especially when you are really busy, I think a lot of times it’s just – you are kind of focusing on keeping the process going not worrying about what’s not going to happen. So I think it is not laziness, it is just your focus on moving forward. So I think that is probably where a lot of it gets lost and again, it is not the highlight of the job at all. I mean, you’ve got to be kind of an evil person if it is and so you know, no one likes to send the, “I’m so sorry, we’re not moving forward” email.

Usually you don’t get a happy response back. You know, if anything it’s, “Okay. Well, I’m sorry to hear that.” So I think it’s easy to procrastinate on.

[0:27:27.0] RS: Yeah, that makes sense but hey folks, close the loop, right? Have some, again, if someone, if a recruiter had gone through a process of the candidate and not had the loop closed, then you would feel bad. So you have the opportunity to save someone from that bad feeling.

[0:27:42.1] JC: Now, there is two sides of this coin too of there is a lot of candidates who reach out to you unsolicited, so they were never really a candidate and sometimes you cannot get back to all of those people. Sometimes you’ll have 20 messages in your LinkedIn of people saying, “Hey, I applied. I want to know the status of my application” and it’s sometimes impossible to get back to every person.

In those scenarios sometimes I think it’s okay if it’s an unsolicited contact to not respond but if it is someone who took the time to talk to anyone at your company, was invited for an interview of any even if it was just a pre-screen, you need to close the loop.

[0:28:23.9] RS: Yeah, yeah, definitely.

[0:28:25.4] JC: Oh, one thing I have learned especially with trying to manage my time is to make things easy on yourself is put some of the responsibility in on the candidate. “Hey, I am going to send your resume to the hiring team. If you have not heard back from me by Wednesday, feel free to shoot me an email and I will make sure to ping the team and get you an update.”

That’s really helpful because sometimes you don’t hear back from hiring managers. You sent the email, you haven’t heard back, you’re onto the next thing, shows their interest. If they follow up, that means they’re interested and then if they don’t follow up with you, you can sort of sleep well at night thinking, “Well, I put the ball in their court. I invited them to follow up with me on Wednesday. They did not.” So that’s been really helpful for so many reasons.

[0:29:13.0] RS: Yeah and you kind of force some accountability from yourself too to be like, “Okay, if this doesn’t happen by Wednesday, I am going to hear about it from this candidate who is going to be ornery about it. So I should probably push this rock uphill a little bit.”

[0:29:25.3] JC: And when they do follow up on Wednesday assuming they do and if I haven’t heard from the hiring manager, I always send the hiring manager a ping saying, “Hey, don’t forget to look at this candidate and a lot of times it just they missed it in their inbox and so that’s been a really good tool.

[0:29:40.7] RS: I would even consider like the passive-aggressive BCC respond to the candidate BCC the hiring manager and just be like, “Look dude, come on. People are waiting for this, what are you doing?”

[0:29:52.7] JC: We don’t think about that. Fortunately, our hiring managers are actually very responsive. So usually when they don’t get back to me it’s a weird fluke but I have worked with people in the past that that would have been actually been a really good tactic.

[0:30:05.0] RS: Yeah, use it wisely, use it sparingly. I don’t know. You know your relationships with hiring managers there than anyone else. So I’ll leave that up to the folks at home to decide but Jodi, here we are creeping up on optimal podcast length but before I let you go, I was just hoping to get some parting advice and wisdom from you.

For people who are considering a career move, whether it’s they’ve been laid off, they are looking for their new job or they are considering moving from one company or another, what advice would you give to people in the talent space as they figure out what is their next move?

[0:30:39.2] JC: Yeah, so obviously the job market is in kind of a weird moment, hopefully a short weird moment that’s my prediction but a little bit of a weird moment, if you can be picky, try and look at a company that interests you that you can get excited about it. So if it is a widget company and you don’t understand what the widget does and you don’t know how to talk about it, you don’t understand the positions you’re going to be recruiting on, I would make that your last option.

It is going to be really hard to get excited about it. It is going to be really hard to talk to candidates about it and you’re not going to look forward to going to work every day. If you can find a company that ideally you love what the company does, so when you talk to candidates, you’re excited about it and you’re not feeling the need to sell, which you really shouldn’t have to be selling it because you are so excited and or you are recruiting on positions that interest you that you understand.

So you can get in the weeds with candidates, geek out with them about whatever it is they do, you are going to have your most success. It is going to be fun, you’re going to look forward to it, you are not going to procrastinate on filling the jobs that don’t interest you. Sure, everyone listening to this is recruited for a role that they didn’t understand or it is just not their wheelhouse, so it typically went to the back of the pile in term of your projects, try and find something that you connect with, that you are interested in and that you love the company or clients that you are recruiting for.

[0:32:06.0] RS: Jodi, that is fantastic advice. Thank you so much for joining the podcast. I really love chatting with you today.

[0:32:11.6] JC: Thank you, it was such a pleasure.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:32:15.8] RS: Talk Talent to Me is brought to you by Hired. Hired empowers connections by matching the world’s most innovative companies with ambitious tech and sales candidates. With Hired, candidates and the companies have visibility into salary offers, competing opportunities and job details. Hired’s unique offering includes customized assessments and salary bias alerts to help remove unconscious bias when hiring. By combining technology and human touch, our goal is to provide transparency in the recruiting process and empower each of our partners to employ their potential and keep their talent pipeline full.

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