All Episodes Head of Talent and VP of HR Camille Tate and Camille Patton
Camille Tate and Camille Patton

Head of Talent and VP of HR Camille Tate and Camille Patton

Personal Branding

For departments that are supposed to be working in tandem, HR personnel and recruiters are often putting each other down and devaluing the other’s role. Today’s guests have rectified the situation and are showing us exactly how it should be done, with HR and TA working side-by-side to deliver a hit podcast, The Career Saloon. Carla Patton is VP of HR at RAPP, and her twin sister, Camille Tate, is Head of Talent at Strava. The pair give us a breakdown of their podcast and explain why they started it, before detailing exactly how they ended up in their current careers. We discuss how to turn a bad interview into a valuable one, why it’s vital to be self-aware and own your mistakes, and why personal branding is inherent in every one of us. As Carla and Camille explain why they’ve never switched from HR to TA and vice versa, they give us their take on their least favorite aspects of the opposite department. Carla’s passion for TA is mirrored by Camille’s love for HR and after telling us which type of person is suited for each of their career paths, they explain why recruiters need to up their game and be more deliberate in their approach, and how technological advancements are making people forget about human-centric work departments.

Episode Transcript

Rob Stevenson 0:05
Welcome to talk down to me, a podcast featuring the most elite talent leaders on the front lines of modern recruitment.

Speaker 2 0:12
We actually want to understand the themes of someone’s life. We want to understand how they make decisions where they’re willing to take risks and what it looks like when they

Rob Stevenson 0:21
fail. No holds barred completely off the cuff interviews with directors of recruitment VPs of global talent, CHR rows, and everyone in between.

Camille Tate 0:31
Once I went through the classes and the trainings and got the certifications through diversity and inclusion, I still felt like something was missing.

Carla Patton 0:39
Talent Acquisition. It’s a fantastic career, you are trusted by the organization. You get to work with the C suite and the security at the front desk and everybody in between and everybody knows you.

Rob Stevenson 0:52
I’m your host, Rob Stevenson, and you’re about to hear the best in the biz. talk down to me. Hello, all of you. Wonderful recruiting and people operating HR darlings out there in podcast land. It is I rob Stevenson here with another edition of your favorite recruiting podcast, or at least be in your top two favorite recruiting podcasts. Considering the guests we have here today. What do you mean by that? Rob? Well, I’ll tell you. You all know out there how rarely it is I have guests on who represent other podcasts in the space and it’s not because there aren’t other good podcasts. It’s because I’m deeply, deeply insecure and narcissistic. But I have conquered that a little bit today to get our our guests on joining me today are the hosts of the career salon with HR twins podcast. First up on my E right is the VP of HR over at rapa. Carla Paton Carla, welcome to the show. How are you this morning?

Carla Patton 1:50
Thank you so much Rob. Glad to be here.

Rob Stevenson 1:52
So thrilled to have you and on her ie right. When you’re looking at titles on my screen anyway, is the head of talent over at Strava Camille Tate Camille, welcome to the show to you as well.

Camille Tate 2:02
Thank you so much.

Rob Stevenson 2:04
I’m so excited to be speaking with you both. We will get into your careers and backgrounds a little bit. But first, maybe can we just hear a little bit about the podcast in case any of our listeners unfamiliar with your show? Can you tell us a little bit about the career salon. We’ll start with you Camille, let’s hear about just like why you started the show. And we’ll go from there.

Camille Tate 2:22
So I actually started the career CLI as a blog. So it was a blog. And I started it in 2016, I think. And it was pretty much because I was frustrated with a lot of the career, influencer type people giving bad advice to people out in the marketplace and giving them bad HR advice and bad recruiting advice. And I was like, that’s not what this is. So I decided to start a blog and really make you kind of cheeky, like aligning it with like pop culture, fashion, things like that. And so that’s how the career so on Saturday, and then Carla and I Well, Carlos, like I’m gonna start my own blog. And I’m like, why would you start your own blog? Let’s just do it together. We’re tweezing each other

Rob Stevenson 3:10
I can do better. Yeah, right.

Camille Tate 3:11
Let’s not be competition. Let’s work together. We are. I like to say we were born as a HR department. Obviously, this Carla’s in HR and I am recruiting. So that’s how the career salon podcast started. And the reason why it’s called the career salon is because we kind of grew up in a barber shop, our mom was into fashion and then our dad after he retired, and even prior before that, he cut hair and a barbershop. And if any of our audience members kind of went to a black barbershop, they know what it was like you go in the barber shop and you hear about everything. There are people talking about politics, what’s going on our pop culture, local news, what happened back in the day, music, games, checkers, chess, it would just be all these variety of things happening in a barber shop. And then it was also a place where people, it was kind of like a sanctuary for people to like, be themselves take a load off is not work, they can meet up with their friends, and they can just have free conversation. And that’s something that Carl and I thought was missing in the HR world is having free conversation and really, you know, just keeping it real about what happens behind the scenes in HR and recruitment. And we wanted our audience to kind of familiarize themselves with like their rights as an employee, how to look for a new job and how to advocate for themselves and all these things. So we created the career salon podcast with HR twins.

Rob Stevenson 4:45
Fantastic. Yeah, that’s my understanding of the barbershop is sort of a town square in a way, right? Yes, applicant sort of dropped pretense drop inhibitions that is as much more sort of unfiltered kind of conversation that happens there. So Carla We you think about that moment where you’re like, I’m gonna start a blog to what was what was Camille missing? What were you like, I could do that better.

Carla Patton 5:08
I feel like she was just missing the HRPS. The more of the what type of issues, employees run into day to day, kind of the labor of it all working nine to five, encountering issues with your manager, or trying to get a promotion, and all those little details that she might not deal with on a daily basis. So I thought about bringing that little twist on what she was doing to include my sort of my expertise in what I’ve been what I was doing for the last at band 17 years.

Rob Stevenson 5:42
Yeah, makes sense. Now, we’ve had the HR verse recruiting conversation on this show before but never simultaneously. Meaning like, usually I have someone in HR or someone in recruiting, and they sort of extol the virtues of their own role. And you know, they kind of opine a little bit on, when does it make sense to go into one field versus another or one direction versus another. But here, I have two representatives, one from each camp. There’s all these fantastic studies about twins. And they do things the same and like, oh, they put these twins separated at birth, but then they are reunited 30 years later. And there’s all these similarities about them. And in your cases you same same but different here with the career outset. So I kind of want to do the HR versus recruiting thing like round one Ding, ding fight. Can we maybe stick with you? Why was it that that you chose to go the HR route versus recruitment?

Carla Patton 6:39
Well, our how we got into it stories might be similar sort of, kind of, but it definitely wasn’t planned. I think like most people in HR, I kinda, HR chose me, I didn’t choose it. My major was Information Systems thought I was gonna have a big tech job, going to be programming somewhere, some tech company. And that wasn’t in the cards for me, because, you know, we both were at a standstill, after we graduated from college, I thought we were getting into tech field, then 911 happened. And everybody went on a hiring freeze. So we both took a job at a department store, she was in women’s clothing, and I was in shoes, I got to interact with very interesting people, as my customers. And one of my customers was the VP of HR for a pharmaceutical group. And you know, after socializing with her for almost a year, she asked me that I want to get into HR. I didn’t know what HR was at the time, I thought, Oh, she had this like, oh, is you know, we onboard you and all that I was like, oh, okay, great. And she was like, you’re very good with people, you’re consistent. You’re, you know, even though you’re selling shoes, you act like you enjoy it, even if you don’t, and I like that. And so I would be interested, if you apply, and we interview, you see what the team thinks about you starting with this as a coordinator. So I was like, Sure. And the rest is history. So 20 years next year, that I’ve been in HR, and I can’t believe I was thinking about being behind a computer and doing boring programming that might that does not match my personality at all.

Rob Stevenson 8:28
Yeah, so at the time you were you probably viewed like an HR role sounds like I get to I get to sit down at a desk, right? Rather than like being on your feet kind of working in the department store right

Carla Patton 8:38
now. I actually was like, Oh, I get to talk all day. That’s like, that’s like a skill that you know, that I pride myself on.

Rob Stevenson 8:50
Podcast. Give me Oh, how did you wind up in the space?

Camille Tate 8:55
So I was also working at the same department store in the women’s department, but none of my customers selected me to be HR. I didn’t have

Rob Stevenson 9:06
bad luck that that woman in HR only needed shoes. Right?

Camille Tate 9:09
Right. Right. So I actually ended up working at the department store. Then I went to selling diabetic testing supplies over the phone, you know, you see those infomercials, and you can qualify for Medicare Part B, you know, diabetic testing supplies. I did that for some months, and then I went to work for my church for I think it was almost two years. And then a young lady was watching me. This is what we always say to people. People are always watching. It doesn’t matter if you think they are they are always watching you. If you don’t think you have a personal brand you do. So somebody was watching me do my job and my church, and they were like, Have you ever thought about recruiting? And I was like, No, what’s that? And she’s like, You know, I have a friend at this tech staffing company and they’re looking for recruiters. And I was like, Sure. Like, how much does it pay? Right at that point we were like making pennies. And so I went to interview with this technology staffing company, and I got the job. Even though I did terrible my interview, go figure because I’m a recruiter. I was terrible, but they still took a chance on me. And that’s how I ended up getting into staffing. So I started my career in staffing, and moved to Chicago continuing staffing, and I’m like, You know what? This staffing, The grind is like a lot and you age like 25 years in staffing. And so I was like, I really want to go into corporate recruiting. And nobody wanted to hire me in corporate recruiting. They’re like, we’re looking for a corporate recruiter, not someone in staffing. But I was like you all put your most challenging wrecks out to staffing, recruiters. That doesn’t make sense. And so I heavily pursued this company in Chicago that I really, really, really wanted to work for. They were hiring. They’re like first technical recruiter. And I was like, This is my job. I was banging on the door at the time, and sending emails. And I heard from them like three or four months later, they have been transitioning out the CPO and the interim CPO got my all of my emails, and she’s like, Oh, my gosh, you didn’t really like pursuing this opportunity. And so she’s like, come on, in and in and talk with us. And that’s how I got my first job in corporate recruiting, just knocking down knocking on doors.

Rob Stevenson 11:39
I love how you kind of got that role, because it sounds like you’ve thought a little deeper about the hiring process than even the company was themselves right when they said they don’t want someone with a staffing agency background and like, well, hold on, you’re farming out your hardest roles to them. So surely that person would be a success here. I just love that. Like there’s an opportunity to kind of to kind of delicately push back on some hiring organizations because they might not know what they want. Quickly, when you think back to that first interview, when you said you did really poorly, but still got the job. Do you think you really did badly? Or where do you maybe too hard on yourself? You can’t have done that badly if they still offered you the job?

Camille Tate 12:13
Well, I think they were just really needing recruiters. But I also, I think, inherently Carla and myself have been successful, even if we mess up because we have personality, and we have drive. So even though I mess up, I still have determination. And I think people can see that. Especially if you’re good in sales and things like that. And I think that’s what, like my account manager at the time. And one of the senior recruiters, I think that’s what they saw me like, I could mess up with some of my communication and my articulation of the some of the things that I had done, but I was really hungry and driven to do whatever job I had.

Rob Stevenson 12:57
Yeah, performing in an interview is very different than performing on the job, right? Oh, maybe if you can kind of cause or point out that distinction a little bit or, or like recover? How do you recover? Incidentally, if you’re, if you’re in an interview, and you’re like, Oh, I’m breaking this, but you know, maybe you can come back from it. If, if you have enough, you know, charisma, what do you do?

Camille Tate 13:15
I just, you know, I claim it right? So is this even, even when Carla and I are like, one of the other reasons why we started the career salon podcast is we both have a fear of public speaking. Right? Right. And I feel like if you just embrace your opportunities to improve wherever they are, and you just say, Hey, this is not one of my strings, but I’m willing to do it, I’m working on it. Or, sorry, I meant this, but I said this, let me back up, like you’re correcting yourself, instead of just moving past an error or omission. And, you know, correcting yourself, I think people will respect that. So I tell my team all the time, and even in previous roles, like if you make an error, or you make a mistake, own it, own it, and then you know, rectify that, or quickly come up with the solution in that in that time period. So I think if people see that, then you’re able to overcome whatever that mistake or that error was.

Rob Stevenson 14:18
Yeah, that makes sense. I like the like owning it a little bit. If you mess up in an interview, and you could even kind of call it out and say, Oh, that’s probably not a great answer. What are you kind of looking for here? What’s the what’s important to you about this question? Like, I want to make sure I answered this in a meaningful way. But I feel like I didn’t do a good job. I feel like that shows more self awareness and intend to improve than someone who just kind of bulldozes through it and then smiles and blinks at the end of their answer and doesn’t say anything.

Camille Tate 14:44
Right. In interviews. You know, in my past, I would just start off me like I’m a recruiter, but I hate interviews. I’ve done very poorly. I just generally like having a conversation and getting an understanding of the company and you and you get any understanding of me and my background? Can we do that? I mean, I think that takes confidence, of course. But I think that you can do it, you can set the time, I think a lot of people that are looking for jobs and interviewing, they’re nervous, because they feel like someone has a control over the situation and environment. And they don’t think that they have that same control, or they can manage the environment, because they’re looking to get something from that person. But it’s a two way relationship. And you’re able to set the tone as well in your interview.

Rob Stevenson 15:30
Carla, do you kind of touch that process too, even though you’re not explicitly recruiting, there’s so much overlap, right. And these two roles, there is like a whose job is it to do XYZ, sometimes it falls to HR, do you end up kind of with your fingerprints on interview processes, too,

Carla Patton 15:45
just a little bit, you know, especially as we have internal hires, and they’re transitioning to new roles. And openings, we have several people that transition from one department to a whole different, they’ll go from account leadership, or client services to project management. And so walking them through that process and transitioning, I really have a great partner where I work that works in TA, so we kind of grabbed it from the onboarding process. But I would say that I do a lot of it is all in conferencing, how you advocate for yourself. And that’s a part of the interview process. That’s a part of talking to your manager about your goals. That’s a part of discussing with your manager where you feel like you have some weak areas that you need help with. That’s, that’s a part of all of that. And I think a part of that is self awareness piece that you spoke about, on every front, being self aware of who you are, when you’re interviewing, being so aware of who you are, knowing that you want to advocate for a promotion, or raise or anything like that, or even to transition to a different group or department or different total different jobs. So I think that’s all encompassing, that self awareness, I think is we talk about personal branding a lot. And I think a lot of little soft skills, make up that personal brand. I think when people think about personal brand, they’re thinking that you have to put on a facade, but it’s actually the opposite is actually being transparent and authentic with who you are. So being self aware, and knowing what areas you need to grow. Also, knowing your strengths. Also, knowing what you’ve done in the past, and being able to articulate that not fake the funk, but truly dig into what you’ve done. So you can truly advocate for yourself and what you need and want in your career. And we always get into that conversation too, because a lot of employees and candidates thinks that is the manager’s job to navigate that for them. No, it’s actually yours. Of course, we we want leaders to help us with that, and speak our name and rooms that we’re not in and things like that, because we don’t have access. But we need to set our manager up to have that template of here’s my person, here’s how he or she, who they are and what they can provide and what skill set they have. So it’s all of that it’s actually a lot not think about and the

Rob Stevenson 18:21
thing about it is I love that we’ve stripped down personal branding to its foundation a little bit here. Camille, you mentioned a moment ago that people are watching people are taking notice of what you do. And that can become your personal brand. If you think to yourself, oh, I need to establish my personal brand more. Do I have to post more on social media and do LinkedIn posts and start a podcast? Like? Well, you can but you don’t have to. It’s funny. We’re all three of us shaking our heads here. All three of our podcasts is like no, don’t do it. What you can do is just deliver and advocate for yourself. And then you have a personal brand, right? Because then you have a reputation as someone who gets shit done. And that’s really what is what is it that you want from a personal brand. I guess you want inbound, you want people to take notice of your work and to offer you more opportunities. And so you can do that without like some sort of externalized marketing funnel, I think it’s important to call out right now. We are a long way from the floor of Nordstrom, where you both began in the shoe department and in women’s wear respectively. Both of you have had an opportunity I’m sure to cross over right. I’m sure someone has said to you Camille, look, you’ve been doing such a great job in recruiting. Would you ever think about HR? Often that conversation is like come to the dark side? Right. I hear it referred to Carla and certainly for you. I’m sure people have said hey, you’ve been doing reach out the HR side. Do you want to take on some roles? So I guess my question I’ll have you both kind of respond individually is why have neither of you bitten on that offer? Let me start with you. Why did you never want to

Camille Tate 19:51
Oh my goodness. I think that I can handle some aspects. Okay, so I do have my PHR. I do have my SHRM CP is So, I take advantage of all the HR like opportunities to grow myself. But really, recruiting is just something I have a passion for I say it in my LinkedIn bio, like, helping someone on their career journey and their career path, get their, their dream job or a step to something else is like the most amazing feeling ever. But also, the Employee Relations piece, and the paperwork, and all of that I just, that’s not something that I would like to do every day. Not to say that’s all Carla does, or people in HR, but I just, I like to be the cheerleader for the company, right? I like to embrace the company represent the company, and also get people excited, and make sure people aren’t comfortable. I don’t look at recruiting as just like, oh, I have this job, I’m looking for this person with these skills, it’s gonna be matching them like a puzzle, and then that person is gonna start, yay, hooray, recruiting is done. It’s not it’s not like that. It’s, I look very much as recruiters are supposed to be advocates. We’re supposed to be advocates, you talk about diversity, equity, inclusion, all of these things. A lot of that starts from the company. But it also starts with the people who are representing your company in the marketplace, right? Are you a spoke give me exposure to opportunities to people from all different backgrounds, and making sure the word is out there. And there’s so many things that recruiters do, that people don’t even understand that are a big part is marketing. Its brand talent branding, it’s prepping candidates, it’s being a partner to hiring managers and guiding them through the process. It’s so many things that I feel like recruiting is kinda like HR, in a different way. But recruiting is it’s just a passion of mine, just the people that I’m connected to that I network with, they, I have long standing relationships with them. And I love to look on LinkedIn and see a person that I hire back in 2005, being a VP or SVP or a si, whatever. That is such an amazing feeling. And I don’t think that I can let that go and transition to human resources 100%, I do have that skill set. I’m not saying that recruiters shouldn’t have an HR been to their toolkit. But that’s just not something that I am interested in doing full time because I don’t want to deal with people’s issues like that on a day to day basis. So much of ER and HR is counseling, and I just am not my mindset is not set up for that on it on a day to day basis. So that’s why

Rob Stevenson 23:08
when you said so much of its counseling Carla’s like wide eyed and like, I can’t tell if it’s because she agrees or disagrees is part of your role, Carla,

Carla Patton 23:17
I agree. Especially, it’s increase throughout the pandemic, and post pandemic error that we’re in now. Like, I really am considering taking some psychology courses, to be more equipped to handle some issues in the workplace, because a lot of it is that and but that’s another piece that makes the human resources, generalist parks so fulfilling as well. You know, I can look back and, and think about a few major issues throughout my career, where employees were having a tough time with their manager, or a tough time, even in their family. But of course, they bring in their whole self to work. So they have that with them at work in their mind. And it’s like causing them not to focus and and walking them through that issue and in helping them get through it. And they come back and was like thank you so much. I got a promotion, or thank you so much. I reached out to the employee assistance program, I got a counselor, I’m better I can focus more at work. They didn’t know how to use the employee assistance program. They never been to therapy, and all of those things and so I take my job is and I’m a generalist at heart which means I dabble in everything. So I have done recruiting the job before this. I worked in a start up and I was a department of one so I did the postings I did the sources I did the recruiting coordinator part were setting up interviews with a manager I I have done all that. But that’s not where my passion lies. And that’s another part of personal branding, I do what works for me, I know myself, I am self aware, I don’t think I could thrive for 17 years like my sister has, in recruiting, I probably would have given up long before, she didn’t say, you know, before that time. And I think, when able to thrive long term in a career, you have to know your why you can’t just like it, because a lot of it, you know, you have to be careful with that too. Because if you care too much, you’ll begin to internalize, and you have to watch that as well. You’ll internalize other people’s issues as you try to help them through it and all these other things. So you have to take care of yourself in this space as well. And I’m learning that. So I love what I do. And hats off to the recruiters, you know, I wouldn’t want to do that thankless job, right, on behalf

Rob Stevenson 26:03
of all recruiters.

Carla Patton 26:08
We take we take care of the people that they hire. So thank you. We’ll take it from here.

Rob Stevenson 26:18
Carla, it sounds like a part of the job that you really like is that the development piece, the advocacy, which is it’s similar to what we mean when you are explaining what makes you passionate about connecting people with a job that really works for them seeing their careers grow. There’s just like, it does feel like we’re there’s two sides of the same coin, or maybe even more closely related than that. But so Carla, for you, when you think about okay, I do love this piece of helping people become more engaged and advocating for them. Where it is then the piece of recruitment that you’re like, No, that part’s not for me,

Carla Patton 26:51
I would say probably sourcing and doing phone screens, that takes a lot of energy. And you’re like sifting and you know having so many conversations and I like talking but not that it’s a lot. It’s a lot of picking up the phone. I know now they do phone screens via video sometimes. But when it was pick up the actual phone and call people, I was doing that. And I was like you know, I know. For some reason, I don’t like talking on the phone. I’ll talk to you on video. But to pick up a phone and have like a 30 minute conversation, like eight times a day. That’s not really my thing. And the offer stage. Here we’re going to offer you 95 When you know back in the day, you can see what people used to make and they would make Oh, I come from a job where I’m making 70 We offer you 95 That’s not good enough. I want 105 Okay, but you were making 70. So yeah, I am gonna, I’m gonna sit on the sidelines for that. I’ll let Camille Camille in team habit. Yep, nope.

Rob Stevenson 28:09
Yeah, the phone screen thing is interesting, because while every person you speak to is different, the structure of that conversation is very similar, right, like in terms of getting to know them? And what are the candidate motivations, drawing out the important things from their experience to make sure that they are a good fit, and that they can go up and get this role, possibly. And what I want to call out is like, this is true for any job, there are certain things like that, that are just recurring, and just about every role. And yeah, if you don’t like it, or if, if you’re at least, like below mediocre on it, eventually you will burn out, right? There’s something like, for me, I do a pre interview for this podcast. And that’s very similar to a phone screen where it’s kind of the same conversation, and I give the exact same nine or 10 minute spiel on what the show is. And at the end people like wow, that was really informative. I was like, Yeah, I’ve done it 300 times. But if I didn’t love doing this, I would be so sick of that, like I would have quit doing that 290 episodes ago. So you really like, what am I saying? I’m trying to get a little bit of like career advice to folks that like, if there’s a recurring part of your job that you hate, you’re just going to build resentment for it. And so maybe there’s you need to look for ways to move that off of your plate. Has that kind of been the process for the two of you in honing in on your particular like skill set. Camila, did you have that experience where it’s like look, this is an HR thing it’s technically part of my job. I know how to do it. I can do it. But don’t make me do it.

Camille Tate 29:35
Like people operation shout out to our people operations right there and stuff like that, like spreadsheets, nine boxes. Compensation. Don’t ask, they already tell people have Strava like my team, my boss. They already know. Camille says that’s not her ministry. Correct. That’s not my ministry. So don’t ask me for it. Don’t expect me to do it big because that is not my ministry, I do not do spreadsheets, I don’t know how to Excel or Google Sheets Guru, I will not put together your, your data and things like that your data analytics. And that’s Rob, that’s interesting for a talent leader. Usually talent leaders have to like put together dashboards, KPIs, data, analytics, all these none, I don’t do that. I don’t do that at all. I’m good at recruiting. So building relationships, talking to people identifying the right skill set, I’m good at people leadership, encouraging my team, giving some structure, kind of digging in there with them kind of player coach type of thing. Don’t ask me to pull it pull a report together. If greenhouse can’t spit it out? I can’t. So that is not. That is not my strength, and I will not do it. And so as long see this, what Carlos was talking about, and what I was being self aware. And, you know, I think some people go into interviews, and they just give people what they want to hear. I don’t do that. Because I know if you say Camille, can you put together a report and do a pivot table? And this and that, and color coding? And no, I can’t. Because yeah, I don’t do that. Yeah, I’m sorry, I don’t do that. I’m good at recruiting. So all of the like back end stuff that software can do, they can do that. And I’m just gonna do stick to the core part of my job, because I know myself. And then I also don’t want to go into and this is a part of advocating for yourself, you want that promotion and things like that, but you go into something, and you have a company or your manager blind as to what you can and can’t do at the time doesn’t mean you can’t learn but you can and can’t do, then that’s not really advocating for yourself, because you want to be genuine and authentic, about your strengths and opportunities, and also your areas for growth. And if this position Estrada was like, Oh, you’re gonna do this, and this, this is not the position for me. And some people are like, oh, yeah, so yeah, I could do that. Or I can learn that. And then they take the job, and then they hate that part of the job. But that’s because you weren’t authentic. You didn’t, you weren’t upfront with the company and the people you’re interviewing with. That’s, that’s not something you like to do. That’s not something you’ve ever done. And that’s not something that you’re willing to learn. I think it’s definitely a period of time where I’ve grown in my career about like, what I like about recruiting and what I don’t like, I love phone screens for, but it’s been 17 years. And for me, a phone screen a week is a lot like, it is a lot because I have been doing phone screens every day for the past 17 years. All day. I am exhausted and knowing myself, you want to be authentic. Candidates can read their own, or at least they should. You can tell if a person is really excited about the company that they’re working for. They’re really being genuine, and really enjoying what they’re doing. And that can impede someone’s decision on moving forward with opportunity with your company. That’s why I feel like the recruiting function is so super important. Because we’re I don’t like the word gatekeepers. But we are like the cheerleaders, the welcome mat for the company. And if you’re welcome, Matt is tired, worn out raggedy, there. That’s a disservice. And you shouldn’t be doing that job. If your attire all worn out, welcome. That is just not what you should be doing. So Rob, that is the day that I will give up being in recruiting when I’m attire worn out. Oh, welcome, man.

Rob Stevenson 34:04
I love that simile. It’s like, Look, it says welcome on it, but I don’t feel welcome. And I like to my shoes off, and they’re still dirty like, like, why am I why should I expect it to get any better? Right? Right. So you’re so right that candidates can read that, like you can read your energy. And if you’re saying the right things, even if you’re asking the right questions, like if you’re tired if you’re, there’s not energy in your voice, or if like I’ve been on phone screens before where I can tell someone like we’ve been on video for years now. You can tell when someone like gets a ping and they start responding to it, you know, and then I called it out one time I was like, because the coordinator was doing it like she done it a few times. And I just kind of stopped and I was like, is now still a good time for you. Would there be maybe a better time for us to meet and she was like it was like I gave her an electric shock. And we did not move forward. I think I’m a probably a nightmare candidate because I’ve had so many conversations like this where I know how it’s supposed to go Also, I don’t want to leave my job in podcasting. So I don’t know, bothering taking these anyway. Yeah, that that energy piece is so important for me. I’m glad you called that out. And also, I like that you said, it’s not my ministry, I think we should all be saying that way more in our careers. Yeah. Because if you become like, it’s so kind of antithesis, because you want to be the person to get stuff done. Right. And when someone comes to you and says, Carla, can you do this? Camille, can you do this, you want to be the person that’s like, Yes, I can do it, like I am the person that can get stuff done. But here’s the problem. When you do that, then you get more work, right? And it’s not going to be related to the thing you want to do. You’ve made the concession once, and now you have this reputation of someone who does this job, and it’s not the job that you want to do. And so you have to be deliberate, saying no, because otherwise, you’re just gonna, you’re just gonna get more and more of that. Also shout out to the the I don’t do spreadsheets thing. That’s like, I’ve never heard someone say that, like you said, Camille, most like directors of recruitment heads of talent are like, You got to have your data in a row, you got to have blah, blah, blah, and then they explain their very advanced spreadsheet. But here’s an unpopular take that I think is true that I’m making up right now is that that’s going to become a commoditized. Like when you save, it’s not greenhouse, I don’t know it, as HR tech tools improve as long as the data you put in is clean. So as long as you’re logging the events as they happen, then it’s going to serve that up to you like you don’t, you’re awesome spreadsheet is not going to be a differentiator for your career in 2024, I promise.

Camille Tate 36:32
Right? When I was looking for new jobs, it was like, you know, of course, I’m senior level executive level and recruitment, and I’ll be looking at job descriptions. And a bullet was say, data experience reporting that nope, not applying. Not Apply. I know myself. So. Yeah. I mean, I’ve been on panels and things like that, where the whole panel will be talking about AI, and analytics and dashboards for recruiting. And I will be the only person like, you guys don’t use call sheets anymore. Like oh, man, like, like, also old school. Yeah. But I think that’s what they respond to

Rob Stevenson 37:10
every year panelists question would that’s not my ministry.

Carla Patton 37:14
I’m like, Yeah, you get, I think, and that’s, you know, and that’s kind of, you know, people that want to be in recruiting, if they only see one side, they’re gonna be like, Oh, that’s the only side of recruiting I think is good for like panels and conferences to have me there. conferences and things like that are so heavy on data analytics, AI tools for sourcing and all this stuff. And I think people coming up, only see that, and they forget that recruiting is a human connection. Human resources is a human connection. Everybody can’t go through a ticket system, to get a counseling session with the HR generalist or whatever, we are going that way in HR. And I’m not against technology, and human resources function, but is a human resources function. And so it’s a function of people. And I think that you can’t lose sight of that, whether you’re in HR or recruiting, our jobs are very much that Maya Angelou quote, like, people will forget what you say, they’ll forget what you did, but they won’t forget how you made them feel. That’s like our reaction tool. And I think I’ve been able to clear indicator that I’m in it to win it. And HR is whether people trust me to come to me, because the you know, we’re involving the HR function as more than just your benefits and payroll, people. And if you can develop a relationship with the company workforce, and the people that you support, where they see you as more than that, they’ll come to you when they have an issue with their manager to talk it through and they won’t be fearful that you’re just here to hire and fire. I think that’s a good indicator. That would be like the love button on Facebook, or the review five stars or four stars on Yelp or whatever. That’s kind of like if people feel like they can come to you and trust you as their partner. That that’s a good indicator for that.

Rob Stevenson 39:19
Yeah, absolutely. Well, we’re probably not going to do better at ending the show than a Maya Angelou quote. So maybe we should get into here, but I would let’s at least try. Carlo. as we wind down I’m going to ask you both one more question. And then hopefully, this will kind of thread the needle here. I’m putting the pressure all on you both. Under what circumstances Carla should someone pursue a career in HR, not recruiting.

Carla Patton 39:47
say the right thing, Carla? That’s a good one. Rob. I gotta think about that for a few seconds. So I would say If you are more inclined to have, I don’t know, deeper conversations with people, and help them more through their full lifecycle posts recruiting with a range of activities such as engagement, you know, advocating for themselves and, and all of that. And if you have the patience to connect with them on that level, I would say that HR would be the right thing for you. And also, as you go up the ladder in HR, if you’re willing to still be in the thick of it, and not be detached. I think that’s a good thing. I don’t want people to think I’m gonna be a chief people officer, and I’m gonna have all my minions connect with people. Now, that should not be the goal. You’re always the connection, you’re always driving for that next person to trust you, and to be there for you. So yeah, if you’re in it to win it, for those purposes, HR for the weekend.

Rob Stevenson 41:13
Can Camille over to you, I’m gonna put the question down, flip it and reverse it. Under what circumstances should someone pursue a career in recruiting, not HR.

Camille Tate 41:22
Everybody should not be a recruiter. I mean, it recruiter is a specialty where the job can be repetitive. If you are not sales minded, and I’m not talking about used car salesperson, sales minded, it’s you are selling and recruiting you are selling, your cheerleading, you are empowering the candidate, all those things that are super important. And it’s a different span from HR, right, because there’s no guarantee that this person is going to get the job, right. And we recruiters we deal with variables all the time. So if you’re not someone that likes the gray area, or flex and change, and things like that, then recruiting may not be for you. But it’s so fun. And not saying that HR has now been recruiting about that. We get to go out to universities and meet students, and engage with high schoolers, and, you know, go to conferences, and all these different things and just engage with so many different people. And it’s, it is internal from because you’re a talent partner to that hiring manager, but your external partner, your liaison to the company and to the organization. And that’s so awesome. And so that’s a reason to come on over to the bright side of recruitment. Alley, you get to try on your acting chops, because you’re very much acting in a way you’re being authentically yourself. But you’re putting a little Jewish on it. Because you have to have this messaging come across clearly to candidates and things like that. And also, you want them to feel warm and inviting, and things like that. And sometimes employees don’t feel like that warm, energetic feeling, historically, from HR, like, HR in the Zoom Room, or in person room. People are like, Why is HR here? Who’s invited?

Rob Stevenson 43:45
Carlos here? I’m in trouble.

Carla Patton 43:46
Right? That’s true. But you know, rewind the tape on here and see why we shouldn’t be like that. So if you’re in there, and you have that energy about you, maybe HR isn’t the best for you. So yeah,

Rob Stevenson 44:04
exactly. This is this is one of those situations where I wish I published a video because as one of you explains what you love and are passionate about the other is just like shaking your head like but that’s what makes you both so good at your jobs like you kind of lead with their Camille, not everyone should be a recruiter. Carla, like you said, not everyone should be an HR. So you have to reflect on which parts of the function are right for you, dear listener, and with that, I think we should wrap up here. This has been a fantastic conversation. I’m so pleased you both decided to join me and thank you for being here. And to all of you out there in podcast land one more time. Carla Patton has been Carla Patton Camila Tate’s been Camille Tate I’ve been Rob Stevenson, and you’ve all been amazing, wonderful talent. Acquiring darlings, have a spectacular week.

Carla Patton 44:51
Thank you rather

Rob Stevenson 44:56
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