Chris Volney

Targeted Remote with CBRE Sr. Director Chris Volney

Chris VolneySenior Director, Americas Consulting

CBRE is the largest commercial real estate advisory firm in the world, and today’s Guest, Chris Volney, is the Senior Director of their Americas Consulting group focused on labor analytics. Almost everything has changed since the pandemic, including CBRE’s consultation process, the analytics they’ve been asked to provide their clients, and indeed their hiring procedures. After sharing his background and how he ended up in his current role, Chris details the service that CBRE offers and how they’ve been able to adjust, post the global pandemic, to directly attend to their client’s changing needs. Our guest speaks to some of the commonalities that exist between his clients and how he advises them on choosing their desired work system. The after-effects of the pandemic have led to more and more business hiring outside of their local markets and Chris describes some of the administrative challenges that occur, before explaining why he thinks that a targeted hiring approach is still better in the long run. If your company is fully remote then you may struggle to retain your employees, Chris explains why that is and why you need to always understand each particular market’s rules and regulations, and why your internal processes need to be set in stone first.

Episode Transcript


[00:00:05] RS: Welcome to Talk Talent To Me, a podcast featuring the most elite talent leaders on the frontlines of modern recruitment.

[00:00:12] SPEAKER 1: We actually want to understand the themes of someone’s life. We want to understand how they make decisions. Are they willing to take risks? And what it looks like when they fail.

[00:00:22] RS: No holds barred, completely off-the-cuff interviews, with directors of recruitment, VPS of global talent, CHROs and everyone in between.

[00:00:31] SPEAKER 2: Once I went through the classes and the trainings and got the certifications through diversity and inclusion, I still felt like something was missing.

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[00:00:52] RS: I’m your host, Rob Stevenson and you’re about to hear the best in the biz. Talk Talent To Me.


[00:00:59] RS: Here with me today on Talk Talent To Me is the Senior Director with Americas Consulting over at CBRE, Chris Volney. Chris, welcome to the podcast. How the heck are you today?

[00:03:07] CV: Doing great, Rob. Thank you. Glad to be here.

[00:01:11] RS: So pleased to have you. I should think that our audience is familiar with CBRE, because you all publish lots of great research that can help people, can decide their hiring strategy across lots of different facets. Some people will know who you are. But just for the folks who don’t or maybe to set some context here at the top, would you mind sharing a little bit about who CBRE are, what you’re up to over there.

[00:01:11] CV: Sure. CBRE overall, we’re the largest commercial real estate advisory firm in the world. I’m with the Americas Consulting group, specifically focused in labor and analytics. Our tagline is that we’re helping clients to solve for place before space. So before they get to any type of real estate decision, we’re making sure that they’re placed in the right markets from a talent and operational perspective. How can clients leverage geography to be more competitive on the talent side is really what we’re here to sell for.

[00:02:01] RS: Feels like the approach for that consultation must have changed a lot in the last two years.

[00:02:07] CV: Yes, absolutely. Like it used to be every project we did was sort of the, let’s funnel down and pick one market that sort of best suited for us. We’ll do a real estate transaction there. Open a new office, hire a bunch of people that come into the office five days a week. Obviously, that’s changed pretty dramatically, and we’re seeing lots of different variations on that. I’m sure we’ll talk more about that today.

[00:02:30] RS: You maybe could have just continued that focus and said, “Okay. We will continue servicing those types of clients. But you chose instead to be more adaptive, and to speak to companies, whether they were doing fully remote, fully in office, some blend of the two. Is that fair to say that you have kind of shifted this view to make sure that you can be consultative to companies, no matter which way they’re hiring?

[00:02:52] CV: Yeah. We’ve met the clients where they are really since the pandemic. To us, we’re pretty agnostic. Like if it doesn’t result in a real estate transaction, our services are still going to be valuable to the clients. So we’re doing a lot more advisory on what we call kind of a targeted remote approach, or even working with clients that are just going to continue hiring more remotely and might not open an office anytime soon.

[00:03:14] RS: Yeah, makes sense. We’ll get into all that in just a minute. But first, I’d like to get to know you a little bit, Chris. Would you mind sharing about your background and how you wound up in this current role at CBRE?

[00:03:23] CV: Yeah, definitely. So I guess, going all the way back to my academic background. I double majored in Economic Geography and Urban Studies at Boston University. This is sort of one of the few things I could probably do with both of those degrees, and then went on to get my masters at Georgia Tech in Atlanta in City and Regional Planning. Ever since then, I’ve been in the commercial real estate world in some kind of consulting capacity. So either doing market research for developers right out of school, and more recently, I’ve worked with a couple of different firms now doing this corporate location strategy consulting, as we call it.

[00:03:58] RS: Got it. I’m curious to hear a little bit more about how the consultation takes place. Are you publishing a research? When you work with clients, do you kind of intimately get to know their organization, and their needs, and then make recommendations? What is the nature of the service you provide?

[00:03:58] CV: Every project is different, and that’s sort of what keeps me and I think our whole team kind of engaged on this. We do publish and a lot of people might be familiar with some of the like externally facing research that CB puts out. Every summer, we have what’s called the scoring tech talent report that looks at 50 markets across North America. The way I talk about that, I mean, that’s a great report. There’s a lot of good information in that, but it’s really the tip of the iceberg. I wouldn’t tell a company to kind of take that, and make an actionable decision on where to locate or where to hire. So we kind of take that, and for every client, the first week or two is kind of understanding what roles are you looking to hire for, what are sort of the things we’re looking to solve for? Is it about lowering attrition in your organization? Is it about cost savings? Is it about rapid scalability. We’ll kind of put together this scorecard. It could be as many as 50 different factors around all those buckets and weigh them according to each client.

When we do that, we then kind of apply that to our analysis, we’ll look at all these different geographies and measure them on those scorecards. We’re always amazed. Every time we do that, with different clients, different set of markets, we’ll come out based on their specific needs.

[00:05:23] RS: Got it. They will share with you what’s most important to them from a hiring perspective, and then you will, based on that calculate which markets it makes more sense for them to be hiring and based on their expressed needs.

[00:05:34] CV: Yeah. So we’ll translate what we’re hearing from them and what their goals are into something that’s actually measurable that we can then take and compare markets.

[00:05:43] RS: Got it. You said there’s more than 50 inputs, so I won’t have you list them all off. But could you maybe just to kind of frame the conversation a little bit? What are some examples of those inputs?

[00:05:52] CV: Yeah, to simplify it, like a lot of those fall into three, maybe four buckets? So one would be the supply of talent, and that’s kind of an easy one. It’s understanding how deep is the talent pool, how fast is it growing, how specialized is it, a lot of the quality metrics around education pipeline. Are there local universities pumping out, computer science grads, if we’re looking at tech? One thing, which we’ll probably talk more about today is also the diversity of the workforce kind of falls into that bucket. Really important for a lot of our clients right now. So that’s kind of the supply/quality.

The second bucket would be cost, which is pretty simple. But we’re looking at not just what is the cost profile for talent today, but where’s that been historically. Is it increasing really fast? Do we expect that to continue sort of into the future? The third one, which is one I think gets overlooked a lot in today’s talent environment, might be one of the most important is demand. Not just, does the market have a deep supply of talent? Who else is in that market chasing the same talent? You don’t necessarily want to be entering these markets where demand is sort of outpacing supply. You’re going to see things like high turnover, high wage inflation, it’s just going to be a lot harder to scale in those markets.

The fourth one, this is usually tied. We see it less with remote strategies, more with if you’re actually going to open an office, but it’s kind of – I’ll call it the operational category. So thinking about things like flight accessibility, the tax structure in a location, the availability and cost of real estate. We’re even seeing more factors coming into around the cultural environment in a certain market, or even political and policy considerations to come into that sort of fourth catch all bucket.

[00:07:33] RS: Yeah. This is getting towards the heart of why I was excited to speak to you, which is that, for the internal recruiter, internal person, internal people ops professional, you are a little siloed in so far as you can really only understand your own company’s expressed needs. But you get to look at lots of companies expressed needs. What is common among your clients? What are some of the common things that are most concerned about? I guess you rattled off a couple there. But what has changed in the last couple of years with regard to what people are ranking as the most important facets of their hiring approach?

[00:08:05] CV: Definitely. So I think two things actually stand out since the pandemic that have really changed. One is, I think, with just how constricted the labor market has gotten, and this really applies. It’s not just like the super high skilled tech roles, it’s really across the economy, it’s really an employee’s market, it’s really hard to attract and retain. A lot of clients come to us with solving for the pain point of like, we just need to get people on board and retain them. It’s a very, very competitive market. Those factors I mentioned in that demand buckets, so around, what is the competitive landscape look like in the market, who else is hiring, like those things have really, really risen up towards the top of our scorecards in terms of how they’re being weighted.

The other one, which is undeniable, and it’s been a really dramatic increase is actually some DE&I factors, or kind of a lot of diversity in the workforce. That kind of falls into that first supply bucket I was talking about. But depending on the industry, that was always someone in the mix. I would say pre-2020, maybe that was a little bit lower down in terms of the rankings from companies. But like I said, we’ve seen that just sort of skyrocket up towards the top. To this point, we’re seeing just those workforce diversity metrics, being weighted higher than cost on a few recent client projects, which is really kind of a major sea change. We’re getting really detailed on that too, because the clients are demanding it. It’s no longer just what is the percent non-white population in the market. Now, it’s sort of more about – all right. Well, we have goals to increase our hiring of black and Hispanic software engineers, which markets in the US, are going to offer us that kind of nice balance of supply, and demand where we can go in, attract, scale, and retain that talent. I think those two the demand side, and then the DE&I, the diversity side are two that are really rising up the ranks.

[00:09:52] RS: Now, is this insight telling them where to potentially open a new office and expand, or is it, here’s where you should be sourcing for your remote hires. Is it both?

[00:10:02] CV: It’s both and it depends on the client. We’ve kind of seen this interesting arc over since the onset of the pandemic. Where before, as I mentioned every project was almost the same, and that it ended in a real estate transaction. We were picking one market to hire and scale in. Now, I think what happened right when the pandemic hit, a lot of companies, especially in tech, said, “Wow, we’re sort of free from geography now. We can do this. Let’s go hire anywhere, everywhere, geography, doesn’t matter. We’ll have one person in France. We’ll have one person in Montana, whatever it may be. What we saw like six months, sort of after the lockdown, so later in 2020 was a lot of clients, even many of whom who had really publicly been out there saying, “We’re going to be a remote-first, remote-only company” kind of coming back to us and saying, “There’s really some challenges with that model that maybe we didn’t anticipate. So we’re still not going to open an office necessarily today, but can we use your analytics at CBRE to help us do this what we call targeted remote strategy.”

We’ll kind of do that same process I’ve been describing, measure these markets. But instead of picking one at the end of the project, maybe we’ll pick three or four, when they might have sort of different strengths and opportunities. It’s kind of a way to test in different markets, and we’ll hire remotely in those three or four geographies. But we can focus our recruiting there, we can lower some of the administrative burden, and I could talk more about that. But it just allows them to get in there to hire in those markets that they know are going to be pre-qualified. Then going down the road, we don’t know what a year from now. We’re already starting to see trends were like people want a flexible option, or maybe they do want to come into an office a day or two a week, even if they’re a “remote employee.” It’s a lot easier for our clients to say, “All right, we have clusters of remote employees, or three or four markets.” Let’s throw up a coworking option. Let’s do a quick sublease, we’ll have a place where this concentrated talent pool can come in, and interface collab, or just have heads downtime.

[00:11:52] RS: Yeah, that makes sense. I think there was this brief moment where remote hiring was presented as this candy store, where, oh, with remote hiring, you can just look anywhere you want, any geo. You can be more competitive. It’s easier to hire from a representative background when you’re not only fishing in the pond that is the backyard of your headquartered city. Not so simple as it turns out, not such an endless candy buffet. What are some of those administrative challenges associated with a remote hiring approach that you mentioned a moment ago?

[00:12:25] CV: Yeah. I can kind of tell you just what we’re hearing from our clients when they come to us. I mean, I think one, there is those the sort of unanticipated administrative challenges. I had one client said, we hired our first person in Hawaii, who is a remote employee. Well, unbeknownst to us, we had to kind of rewrite our entire HR regulations for that one employee to match Hawaii required. Someone hire someone in France, well, you know, for that one person, you got to set up an entity in France and kind of jump through all the regulatory hoops that come with that. There’s also I think some – we’ve heard a little bit too about some risks on the tax side. Technically, the employees are supposed to be paying income tax, and basically where their laptop is located, where they’re conducting work. When auditors are kind of coming, thinking about that, they’re usually auditing the employers on that, not the employees. It’s really important for the employers to know where your people, are the proper tax withholdings happening in the right location.

That’s been really tough when you have people spread out all across the globe. I think a lot of those administrative burdens come in, and then kind of in a way too, just some of the comments I’ve heard are more on the recruiting side, and thinking about it more in an old school way. But it’s a lot easier to kind of focus, recruiting in a few markets where you can create relationships, where you can work with the certain schools to get incorporated into that talent pipeline, just all those sorts of more interpersonal things too. I’ve heard it’s a lot easier when it’s a couple of markets instead of having to do that across the globe.

[00:13:56] RS: Interesting. You would say, rather than just casting this wide global net, you can maintain a remote approach, but should be somewhat – I guess that’s the targeted remote thing, right? You should still localize it in one geo, maybe or a handful of geographies.

[00:14:10] CV: Yeah. That’s what a lot of our clients are still doing right now. It is a remote hiring. It’s just that they’re focusing in some geographies. They’ve seen it as a way to rein in some of those risks, again, around administrative, around recruiting, and also about the long-term viability of this fully remote model. But they start losing some of those remote employees to companies in their own market that offer that flexible option of you can work as many days a week as you want from home. But we have an office here too, if you want to come in. And we’re starting to see that even a little bit. We did some recent research that kind of looked at companies by their return-to-work policy. So companies that were the fully 100% remote, actually have turnover rates right now that are depending on you looking at five to 10 points higher than companies that are sort of what we call this flexible hybrid model. Which is what I was just describing, where it’s sort of – you have an office option, but you’re not necessarily required to come in to that office.

[00:15:07] RS: Interesting. You’re less likely to retain talent with a fully remote approach. Is that what the research was showing?

[00:15:12] CV: That’s what it’s suggesting. I mean, this is something we’re going to continue tracking, I think over time before I call that a real pervasive trend. But anecdotally, it kind of makes sense, just in terms of the stickiness of the employees, and especially young employees, I think. They’re really craving a little more some of that in-office environment or collaboration, career development for all those reasons.

[00:15:36] RS: Yeah. Just to indulge in a little bit. We don’t want to make a hard and fast comment here before the research speaks more, but it does make sense, right? How are you differentiated if you’re fully remote? Because if I’m still in my home office, what does it matter what company I work at. There’s a difference in the people I have on little titles on my screen, on my Zoom calls, but my actual life hasn’t changed that much. So maybe you’re more susceptible to being hired away from a scenario like that. You feel less connection to your employer. It makes sense? But at the same time, it feels like you might have an easier time hiring in a fully remote capacity than you would hybrid? Is that the case?

[00:16:10] CV: Yeah. I think that definitely, that is one benefit, probably of the more remote end of the spectrum, is that just the ability to attract talent, because you are casting that wider net. But then the next question is like, back to what I was saying, how are we retaining them. We might be able to get them in the door. But if tenure is a lot lower than it was for hybrid or in-office employees, is that worth it? I think that’s the question a lot of clients are kind of addressing right now.

[00:16:36] RS: Right. We can do this widespread approach, but are these people going to stick around. Even if hiring is easier, that doesn’t really help you if they’re going to leave. I want to spend another moment on the administrative challenges. Because, again, I do you fear that it falls on your talent professional to figure this stuff out? Are companies typically equipped to handle some of these, “Oh, we have to set up an LLC in France just to hire this one person,” as an example. Who does this typically fall to, and under what circumstances do you think a company can manage this?

[00:17:05] CV: Well, I think maybe I have a little bit of a myopic view on it, just because of the clients that we’ve worked with. But I think a lot of the reasons that we are doing these, again, targeted remote strategies is because people got so frustrated dealing with just what you’re talking about and felt in over their head. Because every time you hired someone in a new geography, there was a new list of potential regulations or things you needed to do. I think some companies, especially the bigger ones are able to outsource some pieces of that to – that’s not really what our consulting firm does on the regulatory side. But there’s definitely other ones out there that’ll do that. But especially for some of the smaller, even like late-stage startup companies, medium-sized companies, that burden falls in-house, and it was really putting a lot of demands on the people teams, which already had a lot of demands on them to start with.

[00:17:50] RS: Right. Is that something you can be consultative with? Like you can tell companies, “Hey, you may be more action to hire in this geography, even though it’s a separate geography, but you’re not going to encounter as many of the administrative hurdles, even if it’s a new city”?

[00:18:05] CV: We’ll do that a little bit. I mean, it comes in a lot on the global scale, and we are doing a lot of global projects right now. So just understanding, there’s obviously going to be some differences within the US like state to state. But where you see them most dramatically, is kind of country to country, and understanding of those regulations. Also, on the pay side of things too, there’s a lot of – especially like, we looked at Latin America recently for a client. In a lot of those countries, there’s a very long list of mandatory benefits and pay, plus an added preferred set of things that you need to do as well to be able to attract and retain. Understanding what that is, and making sure you have all that in place is a big hurdle.

[00:18:44] RS: Of course, yeah. Is there a tipping point maybe, like you’re looking to make X amount of hires so that juice can be worth the squeeze? Like it’s worth it to educate yourself on the different laws and area, provided you are going to make 20 hires there. What is the tipping point?

[00:19:00] CV: Yeah. I think that’s kind of like what’s driving the targeted remote, is like, we can pick out four, five, whatever it is geographies where we’re going to go hire. We’ll hire there at some type of scale. It’s hard to throw out an exact number, because it’s a bit different for every client. But we’ve had some where it’s just any geography, their hiring in the first year 10 to 20. It could be as small as that, or it could be hundreds. But by doing that, they can go in eyes wide open. Hopefully, we’re arming them with enough information to understand those four or five geographies. Like, “Here are the things that you’re going to need to do. You’re going to need to be aware of, and they can get up to speed on four or five versus 100 if they’re looking across the world.

[00:19:37] RS: Right. When you run the calculation of here are the things that are important to the company here. They’re expressed hiring needs and goals. Were there ever any surprising results like cities or areas that popped up where you’re like, “No way. I wouldn’t have expected that Detroit was a great place to hire product managers” just as an example.

[00:19:55] CV: Yeah. This is why I get excited about these projects. As I said at the beginning, every project is a little bit different. We’re always uncovering some new opportunities. I think – I didn’t say this at the outset, but like most of the clients I personally work with are kind of in the tech world, like our group works across all industries. But I can say with tech, especially in some other industries, there’s been a history of just like clustering in a small set of the same markets. It’s kind of that herd mentality. Everyone goes there to hire, whether it’s SF, or New York, or Seattle, or Austin, or everyone could probably name that list. But more and more using our analytics, we’re seeing a lot of new markets that are sort of where a lot of those markets were 10 years ago, like all the seeds are in place. But again, back to that supply-demand balance, there’s not a ton of other companies hiring there, but there’s really good talent.

Actually, you mentioned Detroit. Detroit is one of them. I think Detroit does really well from a supply standpoint, and you don’t think of it as like, “Oh, all of the big names in tech are in Detroit.” But automotive has a huge tech talent workforce within it, so there’s a lot of talent in that area. The cost is very, very competitive and low wage inflation, low demand. We call that kind of being an employer of choice. It’d be pretty easy for a lot of companies, even small ones to go into that market and really command top talent. Then the DE&I factors, Detroit does really well on those scores as well. That’s one.

There are smaller markets like Kansas City for FinTech, where you kind of combining the tech and the financial. Even places like Omaha or Moines. Also, in the Midwest. Houston, Texas is another one, like Dallas, and Austin is getting a lot of the coverage these days. But Houston is also a great place for tech companies and a lot of different hiring profiles. So there’s a lot of opportunity out there, I think if clients are willing to step away from the herd.

[00:21:43] RS: Right. To kind of draw a circle around this strategy, it sounds like, okay, assume there’s a remote hiring approach, and let’s, for the moment, take out the need to buy real estate there, right. That may or may not come later. But you have this ability to hire in a remote capacity, but you run up against these administrative hurdles, because states have their own laws, and countries have their own laws, and expectations on the part of the employee themselves. You don’t want to have to attack all of those different challenges. Plus, cities are not all built equal, right? They all have their own different attributes, and some of them may be more in line with your expressed hiring goals than others.

Maybe this is obvious, I’m restating it. But I think it’s important to say, okay, when you say you can hire remote, that doesn’t just mean, go crazy, stop using the location field on LinkedIn, and hire anywhere on God’s green earth. It may make more sense for you to take this, as you call it, targeted remote approach. Did I sum that up accurately? Is there anything you’d add to that?

[00:22:41] CV: Yeah. I mean, I think it comes down to the fact that geography still matters, even if you’re not going and leasing an office space, where you hire really does matter. It can create different risks or opportunities for your business based on how you’re doing that. The targeted remote solution that a lot of our clients are coming to us for, it just helps to really manage risk in this very risky environment.

[00:23:01] RS: To begin an untargeted remote approach and say, okay, we’re going to identify a small handful of geos. Because as you say, geography still matters, that we’re going to hire in. What steps do people need to take internally, so that they can be prescriptive about that approach? What are sort of the internal metrics and the specifics of their hiring approach that they need to nail down before they can figure out what city is on the other side of that equation?

[00:23:27] CV: I think it comes down, and a lot of times when we kick off a project, like we’re almost trying to build consensus within our client’s organization too. So back to that idea of like the scorecard, I mean, the output of the projects only going to be as good as the inputs that we’re getting in that scorecard. It’s making sure everyone on the people team, or on the leadership team, whoever’s involved in the project, is kind of on alignment about how we’re weighing those different buckets I talked about at the beginning, what roles are we focusing on, what scale and tenure are we kind of looking to hire at. Collecting all that information in the beginning and kind of driving that consensus to create that scorecard that really is the best representation of where the organization wants to go in the future in terms of its hiring.

Then as long as we get that kind of buttoned up, no small task, but like I said, we help with that, then we’re able to kind of get off to the races and use that to understand where that company is going to be best positioned.

[00:24:22] RS: I feel like companies ought to be doing that anyway. Like, you want to have that clarity in your hiring approach, whether you’re going to use it for the targeted remote approach or not. This is having this understanding of what’s important to you, and where those people are going to come from is crucial. Whether you wind up working with a company like CBRE or not right. I just feel like this is kind of the thoughtful approach companies need to have.

[00:24:45] CV: Yes, I’d say 100% so, some clients have that a little more fully baked before they come to us, but others, it’s almost like they use this project as an opportunity to reset that, and get everyone together, and on the same page internally.

[00:24:56] RS: Now, is that process – like okay, you need to hammer on your ATS. You need to really lock in specific metrics, or is it also more thoughtful in terms of what is a high-level strategy? How is the whole approach informed?

[00:25:08] CV: It’s both. I mean, sometimes it is like there’s very specific KPIs that we’re hitting, and it’s very trackable. There are other things, though, that are more, I don’t know. I might even call them like aspirational. Like I mentioned at the beginning, we have sometimes that fourth bucket that can be a little more, it’s not as easy to measure. Thinking about things like a local culture. For example, what does that mean? Sometimes that’s – I’ll just give an example of a company that was based in the Bay Area. They only had one location. So this was sort of their first time looking beyond the bay. Part of their culture was a lot of people drive electric cars at that company, and it was just sort of their thing. They were like, that’s sort of part of our DNA. Is there any way CB that we can go and measure that? I mean, it’s not going to be the number one most heavily weighted factor in the analysis, but can we bring that in? So we found a way to measure, like what are the per capita electric car charging stations in every market, and kind of passed the gut check for us when we did that, and ended up surfacing some markets that they felt might match their culture. There’s a very distinct metric base ways to do that, and then there’s sort of these other factors that we bring in as well.

[00:26:15] RS: That is such a great freakonomics level example, where it’s like, okay, it’s not just that people love buying electric cars. There are all these other values associated with consumer behaviors, particularly with electric vehicles. What are these things? Why is this a pattern in our company? Let’s understand it, and then use it to articulate a culture. That makes a ton of sense to me. I would love, Chris, for you to give some advice to the people out here listening. Let’s say, I’m at a company, and maybe we don’t have our act together in terms of what are all those metrics and all those like specifics in our hiring goals. I want to make sure that my organization is deliberate about where we’re going so that we can go on a more targeted approach. What advice would you give to kind of push that rock uphill in their organization and get on the same page in terms of what the approach ought to be?

[00:26:59] CV: Well, in terms of the approach itself, I think like the one thing I’m kind of shouting from the rooftops for companies and our clients, obviously, this applies, but there’s a lot of companies out there that are kind of doing this on their own. The one thing is like, don’t forget about that demand side of the equation. I think a lot of companies just go in and say, I want to hire software engineers, let me look up online, which cities have the most software engineers. If you’re not considering who else is in that market chasing it, you’re going to probably run into a lot of issues and attracting and retaining talent there. I think just the demand side of the equation matters right now really more than it ever has. We’ve had a lot of clients who have kind of done this on their own too. And they ended up, maybe they’re based in San Francisco, and they went to Austin. Austin is a great, great tech, talent market and undeniably growing really fast. But there’s so many companies that have also gone into there that this client ran into the same exact issues they were running into San Francisco in Austin. There’s high wage inflation, there’s high turnover. That’s where it’s like, use our analytics, our market perspective to help get away from that herd and get into a market where you’re going to be positioned for the long term to be that preferred employer. Right now, it’s like all about demand, I would say.

[00:28:13] RS: Make sense. Well, Chris, this has been a great conversation, lots of insights in here, lots of take homes for people to think about how they move forward with their remote hiring approach. At this point, I would just say thank you so much for being here and sharing all this awesome insight. We’ll make sure to put some links to the most recent CBRE reports in the show notes, so y’all can check that out and then use it to inform your own approach. But at this point, Chris, I would just say thank you so much for being here. This has been a fantastic conversation.

[00:28:38] CV: Thanks, Rob. This was great. Really enjoyed it.


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