Rob Stevenson 0:05
Welcome to talk down to me, a podcast featuring the most elite talent leaders on the front lines of modern recruitment.

Speaker 2 0:12
We actually want to understand the themes of someone’s life. We want to understand how they make decisions where they’re willing to take risks and what it looks like when they

Rob Stevenson 0:21
fail. No holds barred completely off the cuff interviews with directors of recruitment VPs of global talent CHR OHS and everyone in between

Speaker 3 0:31
once I went through the classes and the trainings and got the certifications through diversity and inclusion, I still felt like something was missing.

Speaker 4 0:39
Talent Acquisition. It’s a fantastic career. You are trusted by the organization you get to work with the C suite and the security at the front desk and everybody in between and everybody knows you.

Rob Stevenson 0:52
I’m your host Rob Stevenson. And you’re about to hear the best in the biz talk down to me. Here with me on this installment of talk talons be coming at you live from the floor of TA week in sunny San Diego is a man who has many things all at once. Is he a master recruiter and sorcerer? Is he a billionaire playboy who spends his time beating up criminals and the mentally ill? Is he both at once only you can decide, dear listener, give it up for my friend and returning champion Mike Batman Cohen Mike How the hell are you, buddy?

MIke Cohen 1:25
It’s literally incredible. I was like I need to just have your random everywhere. I’m doing great man. I’m loving being back at conferences together with everybody loves seeing vendors and friends gathered together and loving the general direction that the industry like thought hive mind paradigm is heading around authenticity, vulnerability, acceptance, and the fact that like, we’re all just kind of like messed up humans. And that’s totally cool. Just be a messed up human with other people.

Rob Stevenson 1:55
There’s like a group therapy function to conferences where it’s like, how often are you around so many people who have your same job? And same like daily problems? Right?

MIke Cohen 2:04
Yeah, yes. And becoming more vulnerable in the space to be able to say like, I really suck at this thing. Or like, Oh, I totally shit the bed here. Dang. Or like, you know, whatever it is like, Hey, I’m feeling stressed out or people sharing like, oh, I struggle with addiction or mental illness, blah, blah. What a crazy blessing that people don’t realize it’s always been viewed as like a weakness. Right. Like, some of you ashamed about Yeah, right. And now it’s a point of, hey, it’s not pride, but it’s just owning your stuff. Right? I’m on the spectrum play me. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I’m bipolar and have ADHD and I have been in a 12 step program for six years have at it. Yeah, and, and the point is the ways to look at that or like, Oh, my God, was he sharing that? And that’s so crazy. Or it’s like, wow, that person is a real person who just had struggles, just like everybody else here, in which case, like, hey, we have a relation point, which is, we all struggle with stuff.

Rob Stevenson 2:55
But if you’re a recruiter, you often have to plaster on a fake smile and plow through the phone screen, like you have to bring that same energy, that same happiness to every interaction. So it makes sense why you would come to a show like this and then blow off some steam a little bit, kind of let the mask slip.

MIke Cohen 3:11
Yeah, to lift the proverbial cowl, if you will. There is something cathartic about just being able to be unabashedly, you and not having to worry about repercussions. Right? What I’m calling like, the DEI movement is bigger than just serving underprivileged and underserved communities. It’s really about each of us owning your stuff, being authentic with it. And being okay. Right. I have observed and I’m not an expert, I’m certainly not a psychologist. I’ve observed that in our nation in particular, but humans are uncomfortable being uncomfortable, versus that idea of equanimity, right within mindfulness of like, hey, this doesn’t feel good. Hey, I’m really sad. And that’s okay to be sad. I don’t need to resolve the sadness. Yes. It’s not a thing to fix. Right? I grew up in a family that was very like, Oh, why are you mad? Don’t be mad, like, Oh, why are you sad? So like, emotions get labeled as bad, right? Or they need to be fixed to your point. And it’s like, no, no, no, no, you can’t act out of those emotions. Like I can be angry. But I can’t throw your microphone across the room here. That’s inappropriate, but I can be angry. That’s okay. Yeah, that’s okay. And so conferences like this, where you’re surrounded by people who are moving into a place of radical acceptance. Such a boon.

Rob Stevenson 4:32
The connection to the DNI hiring is important because it sounds like that is the only way to create an authentic space for someone who is from an underrepresented group, looking at your company being like, well actually succeed here. Do you have anyone here who looks like me? Is there proof that someone who looks like me and has my background can succeed here? Why should they trust you? You have to match their emotional bit a little bit, right?

MIke Cohen 4:55
Yeah. And yes, yes. And I think for me, and again, answers opinion. I’m not a scientist, I think the most important piece is the inclusion piece. The diversity piece comes based on just your focus of how you operate. What’s important to you. The inclusion piece is really tough. Right? Daniel Coyle has a book culture code, which is like, life changing for me and how I look at culture, right? But it’s really this idea of, are you creating safety for your employees? Right? Do they feel safe? Not like, we have gun violence, like fire drills and stuff, but like, do they feel safe to be like, hey, I really messed up. Hey, I’m really struggling right now. And then do you foster vulnerability, because vulnerability comes from the top. I don’t care what anybody says, if you’re the owner of a company, and you mess up, and you own that people all of a sudden are bought into the boxtops. Here, what was it it was at stripe, who did the mass layoff and the CEO wrote a letter that got publishers an email saying, Hey, we, me and Nico, vendor messed up, we made mistakes and how we grew how we hired and this is absolutely our fault. And I hate that we are doing this. So we’re going to try to make it as okay as possible. And like they paid everybody’s bonuses, even though it was September and everybody was immediately vested in the stock that they owned. And they got three months severance. And it worked with HR about benefits and blah. And it’s you know what, like, you just laid people off and ingratiated people into your culture at the same time. That’s wild. Its vulnerability. Hey, I’m sorry, I made a mistake.

Rob Stevenson 6:29
What does that look like for a recruiter to admit that to their boss to a candidate? I mean, what role does vulnerability you think play in a well rounded recruiters career?

MIke Cohen 6:39
Yeah, it’s a great question. So vulnerability shows up for me in a few different ways. As a recruiter in the job, it’s realizing something, that it’s hard for a lot of people to realize, which is like, there’s no right way to do recruiting. There’s like a ton of wrong ways. I can show you a ton of wrong ways to do this job, right? But you’re never going to get it. You’re never gonna be like, Oh, I figured it out. I got like, I do this thing now. Great, right? You just you iterate. You make mistakes, you look like a dumb, dumb, you own that. And you move forward. And so the vulnerability there is being able to say like, Hey, I’m not afraid to fail. I’m not a failure. And being able to go out there and do something, and just fall real hard on your face and own it and be like, Whoa, that was wrong. Yeah, yeah. Right. Like one of one of the guys on my team was doing sourcing and like, spent a day and a half on this Goldmine is gonna be awesome. Just like, like, Oh, this is so cool. And there’s like, I got to be, like, cool. 198 more to go. Right? It was one of those where people get nervous. And they’re like, I’m really sorry. And I’m like, Whoa, cool. Did you experiment with a new thing? Like, yeah, like, cool. Have I ever showed you that thing before? Like, it’s brand new to us? Like, no, it’s brand new. I just thought I could do this, like, great. Did you learn anything? Yeah, like this thing works. This thing doesn’t work. Great. Cool. Teach the rest of us pick your head up. Awesome job, move on. So there’s that piece. Vulnerability with your boss, like in that example, is really tough. It requires your boss, manager owner or founder, whatever. Giving first and showing that, hey, I’m also gonna mess up and like, shit happens. So to a candidate is just being human is just being human. It’s the calls I used to dread, right? It’s messing up calm. You only do that once or twice in your career. But you remember it every time where you tell the candidate this one thing like, Oh my God, that’s awesome. The company is like, no, no, no, that’s 20k Less this role, this role. And you’re like, yikes, oh, my God, right? You told the candidate and it was this is why they bought and calling up and going like, Hey, I made a mistake. And I’m really embarrassed. Like, I don’t know what to do. Here’s exactly what happened. What can I do to make this right? And I think that question is one that also program taught, right? I want them to stuff like me commands and saying, Hey, I messed up. What can I do to make amends for this period? And like it, maybe nothing, maybe if often talk to me again? Or it may be like, Hey, can you go back and do this thing, but you’re owning your stuff. And you’re not just passing the buck? owning it, like people do? Like, I’m really sorry, I messed up. Okay, so Well, it’s like you own it. You made a mistake. That’s totally cool. Is there something you can do now to help occupy or make amends?

Rob Stevenson 9:17
In that example? What are the candidate say? How did they respond to you?

MIke Cohen 9:20
One went one way one went the other way. One of the candidates was like, really disappointed and was just like, oh, I don’t know that I would have interviewed for this job. And I was like, I totally understand. I was like, and this is my fault. I was like, This is my fault. I did not do a good enough job disseminating the right information. And I said, like, wasted our time. What can I do? He still interviewed for the job. He didn’t want to take the job, right? But he’s still interviewed went through the process was like, okay, like, it was a great experience kept in touch with the company, I’m sure on the back end, it was fine. Our relationship was fine, kept in touch and I’d like would make jokes anytime I call them about a job. I’m like, Hey, I’ve double checked. This 10 million dollars. Would I will Screenshot the email.

Rob Stevenson 10:01
I’m just sending you bags of money. Yeah, it was dollar bills on the side.

MIke Cohen 10:04
the other one, I threw out something akin to like, are you liking kidding me? You know, do your banking job, don’t call me again and it was okay. Hey, here’s the deal. That’s a consequence of my mistake. And that’s okay. That’s that person’s choice to have that reaction. And like, I made a mistake

Rob Stevenson 10:20
that reaction though, I don’t know. It’s like, okay, good to know, this is how you deal with a someone trying to own a human mistake. Maybe they could have kept their mask on and gotten through the interview process and whatever, but it’s like, Okay, now this is what this is how you react to someone?

MIke Cohen 10:35
Yes. Yes. I’m like, so what’s gonna happen when you work with people who like, by the way, they’re going to make mistakes? Is this what they connects?

Rob Stevenson 10:42
Yeah, like when their mistakes are actually hire mistakes of interviewing, and then finding out the comp like, you didn’t take the job? You know? Yeah,

MIke Cohen 10:49
yeah, that’s exactly right. That’s exactly Oh, shoot, I made a mistake. You actually don’t have four weeks of PTO, you have three like, that’s a pretty big deal, even just accepted a job. They didn’t do it on purpose, right. And so I think we tend to judge ourselves by our intent, and others by their actions, right? So it’s like, Hey, I’m so sorry, I made a mistake. I expect you’re going to forgive me. Because you know that I’m a good person, I would never do this to harm you. But oh, you made a mistake. You’re trying to eff me, you’re a bad person. And I have to remember to tell myself, we’re all doing the best we can with the tools we have at our disposal. And just firmly believe, inherently, we’re all good and want good for others. To be clear, I also get super pissed off and like struggle with this exact thing that I’m preaching, like, I’m holier than thou just like to try putting myself back

Rob Stevenson 11:33
to that for the people who are just listening, Mike is actually levitating. And he’s surrounded by a fine mist of activated recruiting and Zen and bliss.

MIke Cohen 11:44
That’s incredible. This is incredible. Yeah, but our community is moving in such an amazing direction. Right. And I think, you know, a lot of this isn’t blowing smoke or anything. I think a lot of it is the dissemination of information through things like webinars and podcasts where people are able to get access to real people not not cool. Show me the cool shit and the technology like yeah, I love that I geek out for that. I’m here for that, right? But also show me the real people that now I have a chance to hear like Cindy Davis from Dallas sharing, but like, oh, yeah, she’s on the spectrum. And I’m like, What are yours? Like, oh, my gosh, right, doing talks about like vulnerable things. But I think the mediums that are created that aren’t just around like right now we’re talking about things. I’ve been talking about a sourcing platform. Since I’ve been standing with you right now. We went from headphones to life in general and technology. And we’re talking about vulnerability and dei and podcasts webinars that provide and I guess articles, if you read articles that provide human content, or I think a motivating factor in this unlike have kept the industry heartbeat alive during a two year period, when it would have been really easy to let it flatline.

Rob Stevenson 12:53
It feels like the only way to do business now, you could blame brand Twitter accounts for trying to be hashtag woken, like cashing on equity of gay rights and those things, then Black Lives Matter, etc. It’s like, it’s so obvious to see through this. We just crave genuineness. We all live through this lockdown. We all live through this pandemic. And it’s like, Look, if I’m gonna be spending all my time with these people working on it. Like I have some other expectations beyond how I spend my time between nine and five and my compensation, like those are big boxes to check. But I’m not putting myself out there, you know?

MIke Cohen 13:24
Yeah, yeah, I’m not working for free. And I’m not working in a puppy mill. Right. So like, Okay, done. Next move on. Those are really straightforward, though, right? If you want to hire me, right? If I were to ever leave my company, it’s like, cool. I need to be a leader, the company running sourcing and doing training, and you need to pay me X amount of dollars to do that. Great. That’s 30 seconds of conversation. Move on. Now what? To your point? What’s the rest of it? Who are you? What do you stand for? What are your values? I’m going to spend as much time with you as I do my significant other, if not more, are you an asshole and you got to deal it’s why when I do hire internally, right? We’re a small, small company for people last year or the year before when we hire, I post on LinkedIn, I don’t post a job. I just post to my network and everything. I’m like, Hey, here’s the deal. Here’s what we do as a company. Here’s what we’re looking for. Here are the really cool, like perks and benefits of working here. And here are the reasons you don’t want to work here. Right? And I’m like, Hey, here’s the deal. I procrastinate. A lot of shake has changed in the last second. I’m super disorganized. So I like I lean on other people for that I’m late to almost everything I do in life by like four to seven minutes. I swear a lot. And I’m super snarky and sometimes struggle giving digestible feedback.

Rob Stevenson 14:30
This is like the John Candy speech in Planes, Trains and Automobiles, the enemies like I like me, my wife.

MIke Cohen 14:38
That’s my vulnerability of owning like, Hey, here’s going to be some rub. So like, just know that you’re gonna say you’re cool with this thing. But like, first off, no, you’re not. No one’s cool with that. No one likes when people are late to meetings. Never. They say like, that’s fine. It’s not fine. I still do it. Right. But it’s do you know, the humans you’re dealing with? And I think I think You nailed that on the head like, this is how business is done now, almost reverting back to like, the late 80s, where like everything was a handshake and a network and a connection. And now it’s a middle layer of really advanced technology. And then right back to the realization like, oh, cool, but how do we get back to like, the handshake thing from the tech

Rob Stevenson 15:19
I had this moment. Last night, I got dinner with a friend of mine who we worked together at a company for like five years together. And we hadn’t seen each other in a while. And we caught up. And we were just like, reminiscing of all this time we spent together and I’m like, Tim, I’ve saw you on every Monday of your life for like, five years. Like, I know, all of your little habits. I know things about the way you live. I don’t know about my partners and my best friends and just like dawned on me, it’s I spent more time with this man than I don’t and all my co workers for that matter than I did with my significant other than I do with my best friends and anyone else. When you think about it this way, like the stakes are too high. It’s too much of your time to get that wrong to be with people who are run. And I just that maybe it’s been I’m here at this conference doing this podcast, but I that really renewed my my Wonder for what it is recruiters do because those are the stakes that you spend way more time at the school than anyone else. You cannot get it wrong.

MIke Cohen 16:12
Yes, what you’re saying is like it’s resonating with me, and it’s making me think I’m like looking up and staring off and smiling. It’s just I’m from my brain. This is kind of what you’re, you’re inspiring out of this. The idea of when you get married, if you marry someone because they’re super attractive and fit. That’s taking a job because it pays really well and is giving you a promotion. So okay, cool. If that’s your jam, and you want the trophy spouse, okay, cool, if you just want the title and the money. Oh, not That’s great. That’s for you, right? For the rest of us. There’s a sub layer where like, hey, the person I’m marrying, it’d be great if they had those things, for sure. Right? And you have to be attracted you in some way. Right? You don’t have to be a supermodel. Also, That’d be dope, too, but not necessarily. But you have to be somebody that I get along with. If there’s somebody where we have things in common, you have to be somebody that like at a deeper fundamental level, we share a vision of life that is in alignment, or for a job, Hey, your company values line up with the way I like to live my life and the mission of your company is something that I’m passionate about. It’s like, holy smokes, are you marrying them because they’re pretty? Right? Are you taking that job? Because the dollar sign or realistically and people like no, I would never marry someone because they’re drafted. But why would you take a job just because of the money that right like it’s it’s the same thing you just nailed. You spend more time with a human, you know, their intricacies more than your spouse?

Rob Stevenson 17:29
Yeah, yeah. It’s the same thing. Like you will go through this honeymoon phase with a new job. But you have to ask yourself, what is this going to be like? In three months? On a random Tuesday? Yeah. What am I going to talk to my super hot trophy? spouse about on a random Tuesday and 2065?

MIke Cohen 17:46
Yeah, exactly. Yes. I don’t have anything to add to that. Just Yes. Before I

Rob Stevenson 17:50
let you go here, Mike. I’m asking everyone this Mike. I’m so curious to hear what you have to say. What is the best career advice you have ever received?

MIke Cohen 17:58
I don’t know how explicit I can be on your podcast. So there are no rules. I’m gonna you may edit this, this one out.

Rob Stevenson 18:05
I’ll say this. If we’re going to put the iTunes explicit tag on this episode, just make sure we nail it was not wasted.

MIke Cohen 18:12
Great. There we go then. So the best advice I have, it was a three part advice given from three people for the exact same situation in my life. For those who don’t know me, I own my own business. I’ve never had a desire to be an entrepreneur. I’ve just also gotten fired from every job I’ve ever had. Since I was 12 years old. I’ve never resigned from a job ever. Right. And so finally, my wife and I are married, just bought a house for a living in Texas. And long Behold, I get fired from another job, right? It’s like the fourth job or third job I’ve had since I met my wife. And so she has a thing about financial stability, right? I was nervous to start a business because what am I going to do I have to provide for my family and like the security, which by the way, is is bullshit. My wife is still the breadwinner of our family, even though I own my own business. That’s bullshit. But that’s how I was feeling. And so in progressively more direct order, my career coach was like, Hey, I understand where you’re at, like, I’ve got my own validation issues and all of that you’re going to fail. You’re not going to be a failure. You’re going to be successful, no matter what, because you keep getting up. I was like, Okay, I love that. My wife said, Hey, I’m going to support you. So get off your ass. You’re really good at this thing. So own it. I was like, great. And I think the best advice was the combination of those three things, which is, you’re not a failure because you fail. And that’s okay. You’re going to fail. People love you and support you no matter what, even if you do fail. That’s not indicative of who you are. You are surrounded by people who love you and your life. And don’t be afraid. Just do it. The worst thing that can happen is you go back and try again.

Rob Stevenson 19:50
I love it. Mike is a blast every time I get to chat with you. Thank you for being here, another banger appreciate you.

MIke Cohen 19:55
Thanks, man.

Rob Stevenson 19:58
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