Stephanie Cramer

SVP of HR & TA Stephanie Cramer

Stephanie CramerSVP of HR & TA

Joining us today is the SVP of HR and Talent Acquisition at MGAC, Stephanie Cramer. MGAC has recently branched out to the UK and our guest speaks about taking stock of talent within a global organization, how to formulate a practical action plan after a major acquisition, and the details of her particular approach to the tech stack. It is important to advertise the company culture from the perspectives of current employees and Stephanie gives examples of how she accomplishes this through in-house recruitment videos. You’ll learn of the difficult questions she receives from candidates, before giving her opinions on a real experience that rob had on LinkedIn. After debating whether salary information should be available to candidates upfront, we take a closer look at a member of Stephanie’s team who made an extremely successful transition from admin to talent! Stephanie has an abundance of advice to give and if you’ve been looking for answers regarding all things HR and TA, tune in now!

Episode Transcript


[0:00:06.1] RS: Welcome to Talk Talent to Me. A podcast featuring the most elite talent leaders on the frontline’s modern recruitment.

[0:00:12.8] FEMALE: We actually want to understand the themes of someone’s life, we want to understand how they make decisions. Where are they willing to take risks and what it looks like when they fail.

[0:00:22.7] RS: No holds barred, completely off the cuff interviews with directors of recruitment, VPs of global talent, CHROs and everyone in between.

[0:00:31.1] FEMALE: Once I went through the classes and the trainings got the certifications through diversity and inclusion, I still felt like something was missing.

[0:00:39.7] MALE: Talent acquisition, it’s a fantastic career, you are trusted by the organization, you get to work with the C-Suite and the security at the front desk and everybody in between and everybody knows you.

[0:00:53.0] RS: I’m your host, Rob Stevenson and you’re about to hear the best in the biz, Talk Talent to Me.


[0:00:59.7] RS: Here with me today on Talk Talent to Me is the SVP of HR and Talent Acquisition over at MGAC, Stephanie Cramer. Stephanie, welcome to the podcast. How are you?

[0:01:08.7] SC: I’m doing so well, thank you for having me, Rob.

[0:01:11.7] RS: So pleased to have you and hey, congrats on your recent midday sabbatical you took last week, sounds like it was a truly restful time. Do you want to clue in the folks at home how you were able to prioritize your mental health in the middle of the work day?

[0:01:23.6] SC: Yeah, no, absolutely, I think my brain just decided that that’s what needed to occur. So I had back-to-back meetings on Friday and I went downstairs quickly to go grab a sandwich, realized I needed something out of the freezer, went downstairs into the garage, locked myself out. So from about 11:30 until 4:30, I had a self-imposed sabbatical. Yeah. Completely cut off from the world, no phone, no laptop, no social media, no nothing.

[0:01:54.3] RS: Just vibes?

[0:01:55.4] SC: Just vibes.

[0:01:56.5] RS: You know what’s funny is, you said your brain just shut it down for you. All these wellness influencers will be like, “If you don’t take time to rest, your body will shut down and you will like, sprain an ankle or you will get sick and your body will make you take rest.” Like they say, that’s part of the plan that your body has for you, and in this case, your brain was like, “You know what Stephanie? I think you’re done for today, let’s just walk you out of your home.”

[0:02:16.4] SC: All systems down. Seriously. I had meetings I just didn’t show up for. So yeah.

[0:02:22.6] RS: Local PD is doing a wellness check after your third no-show. Your cover girl is like, should we be worried?

[0:02:28.6] SC: Seriously, I watched The Gray Man. So that movie that just came out with Ryan Reynolds, that’s my dig, mid-day, I can’t remember the last time I did a mid-day—

[0:02:35.7] RS: Ryan Gosling, right?

[0:02:37.1] SC: Oh yeah, Ryan Gosling.

[0:02:38.5] RS: One of those impossibly hot Ryan’s, it doesn’t matter which one.

[0:02:42.1] SC: Yeah, any, just choose one, any of them.

[0:02:44.9] RS: Was it good? Did you like it? Should I cancel my meetings and watch that today?

[0:02:48.5] SC: You know, I want to be supportive of Mr. Gosling but it wasn’t that great. It was hard to really believe him as a serious CIA operative.

[0:02:56.8] RS: I read that Ryan Gosling and Chris Evans hated each other and it comes through, and Ana De Armas just gets like thrown to the ground 15 times and it’s just her falling down the whole movie.

[0:03:08.1] SC: Yeah, absolutely. So meanwhile, when I got back to the office, back into WiFi, my house, that’s the office these days. Yeah, it was like 4:30 and I’m immediately jumping. I’m like, “What did I miss?”

[0:03:20.4] RS: 86 notifications, yeah.

[0:03:22.9] SC: Seriously, I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry. It was yeah, self-imposed sabbatical.

[0:03:28.6] RS: Well, this is now the talk Netflix to me podcast, we can talk about just shirking all of our responsibilities and checking out what’s popping on Netflix.

Anyway Stephanie, I wanted to kick off with how to accidentally prioritize mental health but you’re up to so much awesome stuff over there at MGAC. Would you mind for the folks at home, sharing a little bit about the company and your role and how you wound up at the company in your role?

[0:03:54.1] SC: Yeah, absolutely. So let me start by kind of explaining what we do. We’re a professional services firm that specializes in construction management. So we’re not actually spinning the hammers, doing the building, we’re what you call an owner’s rep. So the corporate commercial entity that hire us, T Mobile, John Hopkins, they hire us to represent them and their ownership throughout the life of the project, their stakes. So project managers, schedules, cuts and budget all day long. So that’s what we do.

My role, I’m the Senior Vice President of Human Resources and Talent Acquisition, and big things are happening, we just went through our first international acquisition. So we have now four offices in the UK and in fact, I just got back from a trip over there, kind of first intelligence capture after due diligence, where just really got down to brass tax to figure out what the challenges are, what needs to happen, and put together a plan to bring it into fruition. So good things are happening.

[0:04:54.0] RS: How did you go about taking stock of the talent situation?

[0:04:56.8] SC: You know, I would love to say that it was this formalized process but at the end of the day, I firmly believe that when you lead a people function, it’s all about connecting with the people. So it was truly just organic conversations, we have four offices, London, Brighton, Birmingham and Glasgow, and it was sitting down with the leaders in those markets to understand what their pain points are, what challenges that they’ve had.

Not just today but over the past year or two, and after a bit of time having those conversations, you start to develop things and you understand consistent trends, and so bringing that information back, categorizing into functions and be like, “Okay, well, three different leaders said this, seven different leaders said that” and then saying, “Okay, well, I can’t get to everything day one but these are the top four, five, six things that have to occur in order to make this successful” and then just prioritize.

[0:05:53.5] RS: Got it. So we take stock, we have these conversations, maybe ad hoc in some ways. Then, how do we formulate that into a real plan? How does that become a practical way forward?

[0:06:03.8] SC: Yeah, absolutely. So it’s really just for me into pitch deck. So I took all the needs that we have and said, “Okay, these are the functions that I need in order to make this successful. So we needed the tech stack in order to be able to support that and then the processes and the people to use it and do it.”

So it just so happened that here in the US, we also had some things occurring to where it necessitated a review of our tools for talent acquisition. I’m focusing on the talent acquisition piece just because that was the tip of the spear, and so it was taking a step back and applying those same methodologies to the needs that we have in the US.

I think one of the challenges that we have as a firm, and I think this is probably the case for a lot of professional services firms, is being able to manage that virtual talent bench. We don’t want to have people that aren’t billable but they are just sadly taking up space, right? So, we want utilization to be strong and so being able to know who the talent players are in the markets that we plan.

So that we have those existing relationships in place to where when the new work comes in, we immediately know who we’re going after. So I wanted a strong ability to manage a virtual bench. Yeah, I don’t know if I’m answering the question. I got sidetracked there. But—

[0:07:20.5] RS: No, you totally do. So when you looked at the tech stack, it sounds like you probably thought about, “Okay, how do we insert the tooling here” what did you decide? Was it just like, as basic as an ATS or was there a more to add to the stack?

[0:07:32.7] SC: No, absolutely, thanks for asking that. So I broke it down into a couple of different functions. One is the ability to attract that talent and the ability to engage with that talent and the ability to close that talent. So, the first important thing was the ATS. Then it was like, “Okay, how do we go about sourcing?” because we don’t just want to post and pray, you know, put out the jobs in the descriptions so that people are going to apply and we just hope that it’s going to be the right person.

So, we wanted to take a much more proactive stance. So then it was putting the sourcing tools in place to equip our team to go after the talent that we want and then also, I’m exploring a new tool around recruitment marketing and pushing out our talent voices because at the end of the day, I personally believe that I can speak ‘till I’m blue in the face about what it means to be an MGAC employee, but nothing is going to be better than actually listening to a firsthand account of that assistant project manager in our Seattle office, talking about what it means for them to be an MGAC employee, and what it could look like.

So putting those tools in place to capture, even a little video snippet and pushing them out, connecting those with our job post so that they’re really resonating with the talent. So the tool that I’m exploring has a couple of different options where you’re attaching the videos directly to the job descriptions and then also, just working with our social media platforms to consistently be in people’s feet.

So that maybe now is not the right time but they’re engaging with those people and six months later, who knows? A life event could occur to where someone is now on the job market and now, MGAC is just immediately a presence in their brain just because through videos and concerns over the past six months. So we’ll see, the tool I’m looking at there is Comparably, so.

[0:09:23.7] RS: Comparably, shout out to Comparably. Yup, know them, I don’t know them well but know of them. So I like shouting out tools, you know? Not that we’re plugging stuff but there’s just such little conversation, I think, about which vendors actually work and it’s a crowded space, there’s a lot of different HR tech vendors out there that sponsor podcasts.

But yeah, I mean, just for you, as a people leader, your role is to evaluate them and separate the weak from the chaff a little bit. So how did you land on Comparably, I guess, let me go there?

[0:09:50.6] SC: Yeah, well, to be honest, I’m a big follower of companies in the space. HubSpot uses them and so I’m like, “Well, if Kitty Burk is using it, it must be good.”

[0:09:58.5] RS: Totally, yeah.

[0:10:00.2] SC: That’s kind of how I started, right? I went down that path and then I started really digging into Comparably and seeing the other companies in the space that are using them and I just liked what I saw.

[0:10:08.8] RS: Yeah and recruitment marketing as a campaign or as like a directive, it’s nebulous but the idea is, “Okay, let’s create inbound marketing or some kind of branding efforts so that people can engage with us in a more meaningful level than reading a job description” right? All these things replete with campaign like that, from just some marketing perspective.

But the anchor of it all, from folks I’m speaking with anyway, seems to be this idea of video storytelling, and let’s get the content to be actual people telling actual stories. So that sounds like what you’re doing. What is the content then, when you sit down, when you said to the warehouse manager or whomever it was in Seattle for example, what is it that you want them to say into the camera so you can help clarify what it really means to work there?

[0:10:51.8] SC: Well you know, it’s funny that you ask that specific question because I also have another initiative where I haven’t got approval for it yet. So we’ll keep that in mind but am I in a talent manifesto? It’s basically a document that would live alongside this example that we’re talking about, this warehouse manager, we don’t have these types of roles but if we did, and it would ask those questions that all candidates want to learn about in the interview but can struggle to ask.

Like, what is it really like to work there? What problems are you solving, what is the onsite remote or hybrid policy? You know, what is work life balance? How do you measure success, how am I going to be, not judged, but yeah, how am I going to be measured? It can be tough to ask those questions because you don’t want to come off as being self-focused like, “Okay, what’s in it for me?” you know, so much of it is like, “Okay, look at what I can do, look at what I can do.”

But, at the same time, you’re trying to figure out how to weave those questions in a way that they’re going to be well-received and it’s an appropriate time. So how about we just answer them and put it out there? So that’s where my head’s at right now. So you know, that person in Seattle is going to be asked questions like, “Well, how is MGAC measure you in your performance? What projects are you working on? What problems are you trying to solve. What does work-life balance look for you?”

[0:12:08.3] RS: Yeah, and there is just so much artifice in the interview process on both sides, no matter how genuine we try and be, and if you just ask that question about work-life balance for example, of your recruiter on the phone screen, right? Or, of the hiring manager, they’re probably not going to say, “Oh, it’s terrible, we’re going to email you at nine PM and expect you to get back to us right away.” They’re never going to say that, right? They’re going to be like, “Look, we try to have boundaries and we have unlimited vacation policy” right?

They’re going to give you an answer that seems satisfying but you never know if it’s really the truth. It’s like when I used to interview roommates when I lived in a big house full of people in San Francisco. None of them are going to be like, “Yeah, I hate cleaning” right? “No, I never do my dishes” right? They’re never going to say that but they do. There are people like that out there.

Anyway, those questions are super important and how do you really get the truth in an interview process? What are some more examples? Like the work life balance one is good, how will I be measured, what are some things that you think candidates really want to know that are maybe difficult to elicit in a standard interview process?

[0:13:07.2] SC: Gosh, that’s tough. You know, I’m thinking about compensation and salary, it’s just like, okay, well, there’s a lot of discussion right now in the market around salary transparency. I know California is trying again to get that out there and how do we share that? I know that’s a big question that candidates have, “Okay, well, what is the exact salary range?”

You know, what are the additional salary or cash component that are going to be included in the offering? So when my team starts talking to people right off the bat, we try and answer those questions, but being able to provide any sort of transparency around that is going to help us too.

[0:13:42.6] RS: Yeah. So the compensation transparency is a huge one and it feels like the earlier the process, the better. Can I share an experience with you that I recently had and you can tell me if I’m way off for the way I reacted?

[0:13:54.5] SC: Please.

[0:13:55.0] RS: So, I got outreach from someone on LinkedIn about an audio producer role and I was not actually interested in taking it, frankly because they were like, “You have to move to Indianapolis” and I don’t want to do that, but I was curious.

I was like, “What does a full-time audio producer make? What is the comp for that?” and so I just asked, “Hey, thanks for reaching out. I’m curious, what are the comp ends for this role?” and they responded, “Hey, we are open to a range of comp ends depending on experience and on the person themselves.” So that was a huge turn off for me. That to me was like, “Okay, you haven’t scoped this role at all.”

You don’t really know what you want or you haven’t done the research, gotten the market data for what someone in this role should command. Maybe you’re trying to just get them for the cheapest price. Is that too dismissive of me or do you think I am onto something there, with refusing to engage that they don’t have an actual salary?

[0:14:46.9] SC: No, it’s a sticky—

[0:14:48.5] RS: Sticky wicket?

[0:14:49.5] SC: Challenge, yeah, absolutely, because a company has to do so much self-reflection and internal change management to ensure that you can go on record sharing all of this information. I remember when we posted some salary information in a market, this was a couple of years ago, and our own internal teams are just like, “Well, wait a minute, like that’s what you’re targeting over there?” and this was a couple of years ago.

At the time, it was just like, “Well, the differences between pay in Missouri is going to be different than the pay in San Francisco” and that is a whole other topic that that we could get into around pay bands and what that looks like in different costs of living areas, but sadly, to answer your specific question there, I found myself being in that role before because to your point, we didn’t have all our ducks in a row.

We went out and it was just like, “Okay, let us have some exploratory conversations” and I don’t necessarily think that’s a bad thing all the time, because in my company, we’re very entrepreneurial and at times, often the talent that is presented to us is going to drive where we go. You know, if we find the right person, well, we hadn’t thought about having an office in Texas but I don’t know, maybe we need to now.

This person has approached us or we found cover in this person and we think they could be really great. Okay, let’s have a conversation about that because we haven’t really explored Texas before but we are open to the conversation. So I think maybe if you set those expectations and have the conversation as oppose to, “This is the interview, this is the screen” I think it is going to be more receptive, but that’s just my thoughts off the cuff.

[0:16:25.0] RS: Yeah, so to give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they just are a little scrappier, they are just not as developed in this process, and that’s a sign of maturity, but you might not expect it from a smaller company as compared to for example, a friend of mine has worked for Square forever and when he interviewed there, he got the offer and then he tried to negotiate and they’re like, “We don’t negotiate, this is the offer.”

He was a little miffed about that because he was like, “Well, everyone negotiates” but I told him, I was like, “Look, that’s good. That means that they are trying to have equitable pay because they know the type of person” also my friend, obviously, like upper middle class white male, who knows how to ask for more money, right? Not everyone does and they shut that down, they shut down pay and equity by saying, “Look, this is what it is, you get this” and that is a sign of a more mature organization, in my view.

So I don’t know, I guess what you are saying is like I should give them a little bit more of the benefit of the doubt but I was just turned off by that. I was like, “All right, you don’t have your ducks in a row” and maybe if I was in a different place, that kind of organization might be okay for me but I was at a point where I’m like, “Look, I don’t have time to wonder and have a question mark, spend three weeks in interview process with eight people before I find out if I even want the offer.” That feels like a huge waste of time.

[0:17:35.5] SC: Oh for sure. No, I totally get that. It definitely sends a signal off, right? Like I would be having the exact same questions but again, I think that if the opportunity is presented in the right way, it’s where, “Hey, we’re defining this at the same time with you like what are your thoughts? What makes sense?” you try to get those conversations or questions answered quickly in the process. So to your point, you are not spending three, four weeks in the interview process because that’s just a waste of time, I agree.

[0:18:02.5] RS: Yeah and it just wasn’t a satisfying answer, you know? I really feel like you need to have some kind of idea. I wish they could have said, “Hey, based on your experience and your perceived seniority, I can ballpark you and here’s a $20,000 range” you know? Like that would have been more satisfying than just nothing, right?

[0:18:18.3] SC: Yeah, no that’s right.

[0:18:19.7] RS: Because at least I know in the ballpark. If she like throws, “Oh we are willing to go up to 50 grand a year for this” like no, right? I need to know that right away. So anyway, I just thought I’d bring that up as a real world example, but I would encourage recruiters out there to do that work and I mean, just hear me when I say, for me personally, that was not a satisfying response and guess what? We didn’t move forward. So use that information as you will.

[0:18:40.6] SC: Yeah, I would probably also say we’re not having those conversations as project managers. We’re having these conversations with market leads in Phoenix where we don’t have an office there or let’s define what that looks like.

[0:18:52.3] RS: Yeah, brand new role, brand new market, there’s some question marks right? That’s still somewhat normal but some of these roles that are like you’re always on or if you have a lot of them, you should have an idea.

[0:19:01.4] SC: One hundred percent.

[0:19:02.6] RS: So speaking of always on roles and new markets and new roles, seeing a segue, seeing a pro, what kind of hires are you making right now? What is the growth of the team looking like?

[0:19:11.9] SC: Yeah, so my team specifically, I am hiring for recruiters. So hiring, you’re in DC, this is our biggest market at the mid-Atlantic area, and just transitioned someone in our LA office from our admin team to being a recruiter. So we put a lot of emphasis on the talents acquisition side of things, and so I want to put those people in places that you and I can take a step back and look at the overall strategy so I can focus on the UK, get that up and running.

But then just really double down on the onboarding experience, the employee engagement piece like re-existing employees. So trying to put the team in place today to where I can the take a breath and focus on employee experience and strategy around that.

[0:19:53.9] RS: Could you tell me more about the LA admin who is now going to be in talent?

[0:19:57.2] SC: Yeah, I’m so excited. So this individual was our office admin out there and she raised her hand and said she wanted to do more. She’s not necessarily was bored but she was looking for a new challenge and had the time. I initially thought maybe it was marketing that she wanted to get involved with but I think that was just because our marketing team has a big, sharp presence out there and our HR team doesn’t.

So marketing lead, she was like, “Why don’t you just get me on a conversation with Stephanie in HR and just see what some options are?” and once I got on the phone with her, I heard her passion and I heard her energy and her excitement just around people and I was like, “You know, we as a company want to make LA kind of our west coast hub if you will.” So being able to have an HR presence, even if it is in recruiting and talent acquisition, was very beneficial.

So yeah, I got approval brought her over to the team and at the end of the day, being able to connect with people, I feel like you either have that or you don’t. It is a tough one to teach and so really, I just needed to sit down with her and talk about the mechanics and the psychological strategy around recruiting, and she is just keeping it up at a lightning phase and asking for more and you can tell she is energized.

She is excited about it, so I am really happy to be at that place. Taking it a step further, this just came to mind too, when it comes to talent development, I would love for us to be able to really put an emphasis on what makes you happy, right? Not necessarily like, “Oh, what makes me happy? Oh, I want to be selling cocktails at a beach” and to see, great that would make me happy too for a little bit, but no.

Just taking the time to sit down and not just say, “Okay, well our career path is X. The next logical foregone conclusion is that you would be Y. So let’s go ahead and put the steps in place to go ahead and achieve those goals to make it a foregone conclusion” and it’s like, I think I read an article not too long ago that said the five-year plan is out. It’s better to focus on the soft skills around leadership or gosh, I would like to come up with all of the different things.

Just on the fly here but the soft skills, right? Because who knows if that position that you’re going to go after, that you are going to have in five years even exists? So I would love to be able to slow down and really incorporate that type of career development and really just put some empathy into it. It’s just like, “Okay. Well, what does Rob want as an individual? What makes you tick?” and taking it from that optic.

[0:22:28.8] RS: Yeah, there was a post in my LinkedIn feed and it was one of these like Gartner or one of these other research firms hosted all of the top reasons people are leaving jobs, in order of popularity, and the most popular was lack of career advancement or development. So I think we all fundamentally know that. All these talent leaders know, “Okay, you need to provide a path for people, even if it’s not like you’re getting promoted in a month.”

It’s like, “Hey, you crank in this particular area and then we can talk about this is the role above you.” That planning exists but just know that that’s actually the reason why people leave, that if you don’t give them somewhere to grow, another company has a place where they can grow.

So I just love this example of the admin who you were like, “Okay, I think I know some of the skills she has in that role and I can use them on my team.” So is it a recruiter role or a recruiting coordinator? What is the talent job she’s doing now?

[0:23:17.1] SC: Yeah, absolutely. So I gave her the role of recruiting coordinator but that was just a placeholder to be okay with investing and train her in all the world of recruiting. So I thought from a coordination perspective, she has access to it. She’s exposed to it, she can see what the life cycle looks like and then she can slowly take on more conversations, more responsibilities, and she is doing it.

So I truly expect her to be a full-desk recruiter here, even great how proactive she is. We have hiring managers in our LA office who she has existing relationships with and initially she was tended to him, because she didn’t want to overstep and start having “account management conversations” with these hiring managers, but it just was innately, I mean, it was just natural. She would be having a conversation with one of the leaders and yeah, he would start or she would start talking about the challenges.

“Well, why haven’t we seen talent? What are your thoughts?” and she had great responses. She’s like, “Cool, let’s look at the applicants” and LA right now is a crazy talent market. This is what we are up against, and she was able to answer those questions and really set some expectations around what should be expected. So it’s been great.

[0:24:27.3] RS: It’s reminding me a little bit about the conversation I had with a woman who runs all of talent for Walmart, Amy Goldfinger, and she basically said what you’re saying, which is, “Look, the talent for this role probably exists in our company.” And then a company like Walmart, where they have a couple of million people working there, that’s definitely the case, but even in smaller organizations, I think it’s important to always be thoughtful about who could move into a different function.

I remember, I was working at a nine-person startup doing all of these marketing and the VP of sales one day just says, “Hey Rob, when are you going to start selling?” And in that case, it didn’t work out. So maybe that was a bad example because I didn’t want to be a sales person, right? But I think that he was thinking, “Okay, this person could be successful in this, maybe he wants to try it. Let’s offer him something different than what he’s doing and maybe he can do it.”

If the talent already exists in your company, why not use them, right? It’s always going to be better than hiring someone new just because someone new is an unknown.

[0:25:21.0] SC: Absolutely, I couldn’t agree with you more.

[0:25:22.3] RS: Well Stephanie, we are creeping up on optimal podcast length here. However, before I let you go, I would just love for you to share some advice for the folks out there, for people who want to wind up in a role like yours, hiring up new talent processes, taking stock of talent organizations, tapping the admins on the shoulder and offering them a new career track, what advice would you give them?

[0:25:40.2] SC: Yeah, absolutely. Probably the same advice that I would want to give my own self when I was early on in my career. Two things, one, slow down. There will be enough time. I get into this panic mode where it’s just like, “Oh my gosh, life is streaming, it is going to be gone and we need to do it all today.” Slow down. I’d had a lot of different positions over my career.

I was project manager for a long time and then turned recruiter, then into HR and talent acquisition executive roles, and all of those positions are ones where I was able to really develop some good tools to put in my tool kit. And at the time I was like, “Gosh, is there a plan? Is there a path?” And yeah, the stuff that I was doing 15 years ago as a project manager, absolutely I use today.

So one is slow down and the other is stop listening to the imposter syndrome. Believe in yourself. At the end of the day, I am here for a reason, and so I think you can tell yourself that in every stage in your career, just it’s hard to do a job and I bring skills to the table and what I say matters. So yeah, I could go on with imposter syndrome for a long time. That could be a whole other podcast.

[0:26:52.0] RS: Let’s follow up on that because I do love talking about imposter syndrome but for now, Stephanie, I would just say thank you so much for being here. This has been a fantastic chat. I’d loved speaking with you today.

[0:26:59.6] SC: All right, fantastic. Thank you so much. I appreciate the time.


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