Dubi Ben Shoham

Socotra Head of TA Dubi Ben-Shoham

Dubi Ben-ShohamHead of TA

Dubi tells us of his three most recent hires and how he goes about ensuring that diverse candidates are being brought into the company. He explains the pressures that hiring managers place on him and how he is able to navigate through scheduling conflicts between candidates and his team. There is a growing trend for on-demand interviews and our guest breaks down some of the issues that arise therein, as well as a close examination of the mistakes being made by companies when they hire technical engineers. In our conversation, you’ll learn how tech companies are contradicting their ingenuity, what the ideal number of interviews should be, what Socotra’s interview process is like, and how and why the cultural interview is a good way of assessing how a candidate will fit into the company. Dubi explains how other companies are lazy not to send rejection letters, before leaving us with an inspirational story of how he gave a second chance which led to incredible success.

Episode Transcript


[0:00:06.1] RS: Welcome to Talk Talent to Me, a podcast featuring the most elite talent leaders on the frontline’s modern recruitment.

[0:00:12.8] FEMALE: We actually want to understand the themes of someone’s life, we want to understand how they make decisions. Where are they willing to take risks and what it looks like when they fail.

[0:00:22.7] RS: No holds barred, completely off-the-cuff interviews with directors of recruitment, VPs of global talent, CHROs, and everyone in between.

[0:00:31.1] FEMALE: Once I went through the classes and the trainings, got the certifications through diversity and inclusion, I still felt like something was missing.

[0:00:39.7] MALE: Talent acquisition, it’s a fantastic career, you are trusted by the organization, you get to work with the C-Suite and the security at the front desk and everybody in between and everybody knows you.

[0:00:53.0] RS: I’m your host, Rob Stevenson and you’re about to hear the best in the biz, Talk Talent to Me.


[0:01:00.1] RS: Talking talent to me here today is the Head of Talent Acquisition over at Socotra, Dubi Ben-Shoham. Dubi, welcome to the podcast. How the heck are you?

[0:01:09.7] DBS: I’m doing great, Rob, thank you, thanks for having me. I’m excited to talk with you today.

[0:01:14.6] RS: Yeah, really pleased to have you, how has the week of talent acquiring been for you?

[0:01:20.1] DBS: Actually, this has been a banner week, so thanks for asking. We filled two really critical hires with diversity candidates and that always makes me really happy. So really good week.

[0:01:33.3] RS: Fantastic. What were the roles?

[0:01:34.7] DBS: We hired a Director of Product Marketing and a BDR manager. So two really key roles this week. Actually, we actually had a third role. This morning, I forgot about another partnerships managers, so we filled three roles this week.

[0:01:52.4] RS: So many roles being filled, you can’t even keep track.

[0:01:54.6] DBS: And it’s only Thursday.

[0:01:56.0] RS: Yeah, yeah. Who knows what could happen the rest of this week? Well done on hiring diverse candidates as well. Is that a deliberate process at the sourcing stage or referrals or how are you making sure you get a representative to swap the folks at your pipeline.

[0:02:09.5] DBS: Yeah, thanks for asking that question. It is an intentional sourcing, recruiting, it’s through our team. So we don’t have particular DENI policies in place yet. However, we focus on hiring diverse candidates through sourcing, referrals, we really try the best we can. We have a pretty solid diverse company I’d say and we’re working on, at some point in time, implementing an actual program but we wanted to have intention. So that’s where we are with DENI.

[0:02:46.2] RS: Yeah, it sounds like maybe it’s an organic or deliberate thing on the part of your team, which the alternative to that is a rule type of thing where it’s like, we’ll have X amount of people in every interview panel, which I’m sure is effective but at a certain point, seems to me like you’re just making rules to force people to be good people, which like are they actually at that point?

[0:03:06.5] DBS: Yeah, I think it’s tough in a startup and I guess we maybe more of a growth company, you have a lot of leadership saying, and managers saying, “Hey, I got to have this seat built. Diversity candidate will be great but I got to have this seat filled. Like, it’s critical.”

So there tends to be more of that than intentionally trying to, like you said, a Rooney role where you’re actually saying, “Well, I need so and so amounts of diverse candidates for every non-diverse candidate in the interview process.” It becomes hard. We’re working on it. My team is, we meet every Monday and we have our DENI meeting, we’re just trying to do the right thing as the company continues to grow.

[0:03:50.7] RS: There is always that pressure from hiring managers though, no? They’re never going to say, “Yeah, take your time, whenever you get around of filling this would be great.”

[0:03:58.2] DBS: Never, that is very accurate, yeah. You know, there’s always like those one or two that are nice to have. “Hey, if you find someone like this, with this kind of background and this experience, I would be open to making that hire but I need these ten like yesterday” right?

[0:04:17.9] RS: Yeah, yeah. How do you push back to set a realistic expectation?

[0:04:21.9] DBS: Well, that I would say is one of my strong suits is I know that I’m the expert in the relationship and the hiring managers are not. So I just set realistic expectations from the onset. I think I’m lucky that I can do that because I know a lot of hiring managers push the recruiting team around but that doesn’t happen at Socotra, we’re the bosses.

[0:04:47.6] RS: Yeah. So does that look like just saying, “Hey, in my experience, this search is going to take this long or a factor of how much bandwidth we have” how do you set the expectation?

[0:04:56.6] DBS: Well, some of it is based on just actual figure. So, I can go pickup metrics over the last three years and say, “Hey, our average time to fill is 88 days, let’s say.” So there’s always actual data to backup whatever we say but it also depends on how many requirements do they actually need this candidate to have. “What is the timeframe, how urgent really is the role?” and then, we’ll just come up with something that makes sense.

It takes time to source, it takes time to establish that first route but generally, I put it on them because I say, “Well, what’s your availability? How much are you going to slow the search down?” and keep in mind, these candidates that you want us to find are passive candidates, they also have jobs and calendars. So they can’t just dop everything to meet with us as well. So it’s kind of a mutual situation.

[0:05:48.7] RS: Yeah, that’s an interesting one, the, “We need this hired yesterday” versus “I have no slots in my calendar, I’m not going to make myself available to interview” right? You have to really push someone like, is this going to be a priority for you.

I can bring you 10 candidates but are you going to go through 10 interviews like that’s the amount of engineering hours, I don’t know. It feels like you really have to hold people’s hand a little bit and explain to them the implications of each role. At least, for the ones maybe aren’t as experienced.

[0:06:15.9] DBS: Very true. One thing I have done is on some of the exec searches, I actually get the execs and have to be on the—because I’m trying to schedule, let’s say, a CMO search with six other execs is almost impossible. So when they want someone like that to join the team, I work with the execs directly unless they have an executive assistant and I get them to block off times on their calendars twice a week.

So, “Hey, you need to block off an hour and a half, two times a week” something like that. So that then, I can just schedule accordingly, I don’t have to ask, I don’t have to wait. So at that level, I need them to buy in. That shows me that they’re really serious.

[0:07:03.8] RS: I like that notion of protecting time and the calendar so that you know that it’s bookable and also, so that you don’t have to just book over something and say, “Hey, this supersedes, can you reschedule this other thing?” But I mean, this calendar fencing, I’m calling it as of this exact moment, it’s just constant and people get double, triple booked. Someone else on their team sees, “Oh, two to four PM, they’re open, I’ll just book them” not knowing that like, this is being held for a CMO search.

[0:07:34.4] DBS: Exactly. Yeah, we do have some pretty sophisticated scheduling software that helps us in general. So we’ll send the candidate an email, saying, “Hey, you know, we’d like you to come to our team interviews” since we used to call them onsite interviews but now they’re called team interviews because it’s all remote.

[0:07:53.3] RS: There’s no site to be on, yeah.

[0:07:55.3] DBS: There’s no site. We do have a location in San Francisco but yeah, few people work in there every day but it’s not a—we’re a remote-first company at this point. But yeah, the software helps, it syncs with everyone’s calendar. So it makes it a little bit nicer where the candidate can say, “Okay, I’m available at these timeslots” it gets confirm and done. I think scheduling fencing is a great term because there’s a lot of that going on.

[0:08:20.6] RS: Yeah, you also mentioned the empathy towards candidates who have existing jobs and how many fake dentist appointments, can you ask somebody to schedule?

[0:08:31.8] DBS: A hundred percent.

[0:08:32.7] RS: Is there a point where you have to deliberately schedule things outside work hours? I’m trying to put myself back in these moments when I had a job and was interviewing somewhere else. I think I just took a half day away from work and I didn’t tell anyone where I was going.

I was just like, “I’m taking a half day” that’s as much explanation as I would care to do or frankly, that an employer is entitled to get from you and then I got it all in then but it seems like these interviews are happening five, six different sessions across multiple days. Is that something you come up against?

[0:09:03.0] DBS: Yes, absolutely and we do a few things. I personally, well, we probably work in pacific time. So if someone’s on the East Coast, that makes it easy for me to do a late interview. I’ll say, “Hey, I’ll do it at night, if you want to do it after dinner or put the kids to bed” You know, 8 PM eastern, 9 PM eastern, I’m happy to accommodate.”

Now, not everyone at Socotra can make those accommodations but I think my team on a first call, I’m happy like, “Hey, you want to meet me at 6:30 AM? Great, I’ll do 6:30 AM Pacific” that’s 9:30, maybe you have like a 30-minute break before your sprint starts or before your meeting, your standup, whatever it might be. So we try to accommodate.

The east coast, west coast allows for some of that due to the, again, the time events. We can do a four or five PM interview pacific time and they’re out of work. Another thing we’ve done, we’ve used outside technical interview companies that have 24/7 availabilities. So for hiring engineers, you know again, if you’re looking for a job as an engineer, you got to do a lot of tech screens.

Well, you can’t always do them in the middle of the day. Like you said, how many dentist appointments can you have, how many, “I got to pick up my kid from school” can you have? So we really try to accommodate candidates as much as possible so they don’t have to either take half days off. We’ll happily schedule over multiple days. I always put myself in the candidate’s shoes when I think about how we do things at Socotra.

[0:10:36.5] RS: Yeah and the on-demand interviewing thing, I think this is a trend we need we need to see expand. Obviously, you don’t want to have like a prerecorded, “I’m Dubi and I’m so excited to meet you” like, that’s just very impersonal but there’s parts of it you don’t need to— actually, I’ve seen this before in the before times when everyone was in the office and it was like, “Oh, you’re going to—the engineer comes in the office and they’re going to be by themselves in the conference room for the next hour and a half while they do this programming test basically.”

It’s an insane thing to do because that’s not how work happens, right? And it’s like, look, unless you have this immediate need, unless like sirens are blaring. No one’s like, “I need this done in the next 90 minutes or else” right? There’s other expectations. So anyway, this notion of making interviewing more like the way they’ll do work, I think is really important. So I’m glad to hear you all are doing that. What is the name of the service you use?

[0:11:28.7] DBS: Yeah, Karat. Now, if you ever want to have another podcast about how I want to revolutionize the technical recruiting process, I’ve spent a lot of time trying to figure that out, so.

[0:11:42.7] RS: Let’s do it right now.

[0:11:43.3] DBS: Oh yeah? Okay, let’s do it. I’ll just get into it. One of the biggest, what I call blockers I would say in hiring engineers is the process in itself. There’s multiple technical interviews, it takes a lot of time away from the engineering team and I would argue that, and you kind of mentioned it, are you really going to do, once you get a job at Socotra is the stuff you did on a technical interview, how kind of relevant is it really?

I know I’m not an engineer so, I can only speak from the recruiting perspective here but to me, the secret sauce would be, okay, whatever kind of company you are and you’re hiring engineers, create a custom technical interview that actually has specific relevance for your product. So for us, we’re a SaaS platform. So let’s have the team create a question and instead of three one hour or three 45-minute text screens, let’s have that question be very specific to what they would actually be working on if they joined Socotra.

Let’s not even have one of our engineers that’s doing the tech screen really know what the question is ahead of time potentially. Let the candidate, the Socotra employee actually work on that problem together. So look at it together, solve it together, test it together, and not only are you getting, someone does really well, you’re not only getting, “Wow, they solved the problem” but “Wow, I really enjoyed working with this person while we solve the problem and we tested it and now we know, if we hire this person, they’re going to be able to do the actual work that our company does.”

But I haven’t found anyone willing to build that, I said I’d pay for it, like, “Hey, I’ll pay you whatever. You build me something like that” because I think that’s where you’re getting the proper signals and I don’t know why companies don’t do that. Again, I’m not an engineer, so I don’t know why it would be so difficult but it seems like that would be better than just this random elite code-solving algorithm problem.

I’ve seen plenty of people do really well on those test and fail at Socotra and I’ve seen people that were like, “Oh, they did pretty good, let’s give them a shot” and they’ve done amazing at Socotra. So there’s not really a direct correlation to success in passing tests and then actually doing your job. So let’s change it. That’s what I’d like to see.

[0:14:22.6] RS: Yeah and we have happily moved on from the, “How many ping pong balls fit in an empty 747 question?” right? I mean, if anyone out there, within the reach of my voices doing that, you need to knock that shit up immediately. But the next generation is the parrot programming, but to your point, it’s usually still some kind of imagined, hypothetical problem that extensively illustrates your ability to do some task.

But what if instead, it was, you went back into your Jera and you’re like, “Hey, let’s find a ticket that you resolved and here’s a ticket that someone who…” like if we could clone so and so, we want their skills, like someone who is just as good as they are, what is a task that they did and then let’s reverse engineer it, pardon the pun, for the question.

You remove all of the specific data and anything that is like secret saucy about your organization but now, what you’ve done is, you’ve basically given someone a task that was recently accomplished at your company, the idea being they will now be able to do other similar sorts of tasks. It feels like that’s just how work actually gets done and that’s how you should screen folks.

[0:15:29.9] DBS: Yeah, I think the funniest thing that I say all the time about this is, tech companies are supposed to be the most forward-thinking companies but they’re still interviewing engineers like it’s 1999, and it doesn’t make any sense. You’re like the most forward tech company to date and you’re still doing stuff that they did 20 years ago to figure out how to hire engineers. I don’t even understand it.

[0:15:52.6] RS: And you’re still doing engineering problems on a whiteboard, right? Like it’s the math problem in Goodwill Hunting or something.

[0:16:00.1] DBS: Right.

[0:16:00.3] RS: But yeah, I bring that up that like, “Oh maybe interviewing is just the best approach we’ve had so far” but again, I really do think that just a series of four or six conversations is no way to assess someone and I don’t really care what the role is. I don’t think that there is a single job that you can’t just—that you can’t really understand what someone would be like on the role just from what they say in conversation to you.

[0:16:26.6] DBS: Very true.

[0:16:27.8] RS: Is that naïve or at least the starting point?

[0:16:30.4] DBS: Yes, so I think four is a great number and everything after four interviews, I don’t think it adds much value. I think it actually muddies the waters. So if we are interviewing someone including let’s say a recruiter call as one, right? Because we don’t just ask three questions to see if somebody is good enough to go to a hiring manager. When my team goes into that first call, we already pretty much know that they’re going to move past us.

So they are going to have to do pretty poorly to not go to the next round and that’s because we spend a lot of time upfront reviewing the backgrounds. It is not just like, “You know, we’re going to talk to every single person” we’re going to spend time with hiring managers, out here is five, these look good. So I am going to call thinking, “Okay, you are already going forward and actually, I’m going to tell you that right now because I am going to take the pressure off of you. So let us just have a conversation and get to know each other.”

Then immediately, lets the guard down and then we have this great detailed conversation and I gather tons of info. That’s a good first call. It’s not like they need the three requirements that the hiring manager is looking for. Then the next three are just, “Will this person fit in culturally? Do they have enough of the skills to actually be successful in the role?” and that’s it, you know? You get a little bit of buy-in, that should be enough.

The time it takes usually to interview candidates, the process, it all should be reviewed on a regular basis, just to make sure we are doing the right thing and candidates are feeling good about it.

[0:18:03.5] RS: Do you find that the culture fit or culture add interview tends to be indicative of what someone is actually like when they start or is that like the other stuff, not necessarily one-to-one?

[0:18:17.1] DBS: So in my experience, the culture-type interview really does translate pretty well into how they’re going to fit in with the company. Now having said that, I am sure people say, “That guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about” but if you can’t get along with me in the first call, you’ll definitely not going to be a cultural fit. I can connect with pretty much everybody and my team is similar to me in how we approach our first calls.

So we do really, at least we say as a company, the cultural fit is so important especially with a remote company now, you have to be able to make sure people are on the same page, can communicate. So the tricky thing is what is cultural fit? And I think there is always questions around what that really means and how it translates into Socotra specifically and there’s really not a great answer.

I think for us it’s, “Am I going to enjoy working with this person? Was there a lot of ego involved? Was the interview confrontational or did it feel really good?” and it’s those little things that we watch. I think that myself, my team, and the rest of the Socotra employees that are on interview panels look for, we don’t want any—no jerks, I guess you could say, to be honest.

[0:19:43.1] RS: Yeah, the no brilliant jerk’s thing is like I don’t care how good you are at this role, if you are going to—like toxic locker room presence, right?

[0:19:51.0] DBS: Yeah, we won’t do it.

[0:19:52.2] RS: If you end up being the diva, yeah.

[0:19:53.4] DBS: We’ve been lucky. We have been fortunate we haven’t had that, we haven’t had folks like that so far.

[0:19:59.2] RS: Yeah, I guess I’m asking because that seems like the kind of thing that, more so than paired programming certainly, that someone could fake. They want to get the job, they want to get the job offer at least and people in the interview will say what they think is going to get them the job offer, as oppose to necessarily being truthful all the time. So I’d fear you’d come up against that no matter how well you screen.

[0:20:23.8] DBS: Yeah, it’s true and that happens. I think it happens a little bit more on the actual skills versus the cultural fit. So, just an example again of my approach, the guard is down so much when I am talking to a candidate that sometimes I won’t even talk about their skills. We won’t even get into like, “Are they qualified?” because I already know they are enough to at least beat a couple of people.

So, we may get into conversations that have nothing to do with what they actually have done and what ends up happening is they are wondering why I am not asking them questions, so they just start telling me all these stuff they’ve done and about their families and their travels and what they are doing and where they live. It is just a really interesting. I find it interesting and different than how other companies operate.

So just a quick backstory, I had a six-year stint where I actually wasn’t in talent acquisition but I became the VP of operations for a FinTech company, and that company was purchased by private equity and I ended up getting laid off, and I knew at that point in time exactly what I wanted to do, which is what I am doing now. So I applied for, I mean, almost 300 jobs, 300, I applied to 300 jobs seriously.

It was 18 months going like, “No, this is what I am going to do. I am going to find the right fit. I know this is going to work for me.” So I got to be a candidate for so long and it just showed me everything bad about recruiting, about getting back to candidates, about interview processes and I took all that stuff and I got into Socotra and the first thing I did was I changed everything, from the candidate experience, not the company what they think they should be doing.

It’s like, “Hey, this is why this is such a miserable experience.” I had one call and no one got back to me ever. I applied and I never heard anything. So those things don’t happen at Socotra. I mean, there is always someone that slips through the cracks but we get back to everyone and we get back to them in a timely manner, no matter what, and I think that is really important. So having that experience really helped bring a good candidate experience into the Socotra process.

[0:22:57.4] RS: You know, it’s a little like dating in that, you’d be amazed at how little you have to do to put yourself above like 80% of the field and it’s like, “Oh, do you have a nice haircut? Do you wear clothes that fit? Did you brush your teeth? Did you make a plan for the date? Congratulations, you are well ahead of most of the field.” It is the same with hiring, and just from a candidate experience perspective, to distinguish yourself?

Little things like that, sending a rejection email just so someone knows not to wait around and get their hopes up. It can even be a template as long as it is not obviously a template or as long as you have a template that you change a couple of things in so that it is personalized enough so that someone knows you did take the time, that all makes a difference and even just like emailing every single person the non-update update.

I am a big fan of, “Hey, so and so was out today so you won’t hear on Friday, you’ll hear Monday or Tuesday.” That to me makes a huge difference and most companies don’t do it.

[0:23:52.4] DBS: Managing expectations was the first thing I learned as a recruiter. If you’re good at that, then you’ll be good at what you do and that’s a big part of it and I agree. I’d sent out 50 rejections today already.

You know, I wish I could make everyone custom but I work so hard at making a kind, what I call my kind rejection template, and I get so many thank yous. So many, “Thank you for letting me know, thank you for sending me this. It’s just nice, even though I am disappointed, I really appreciate it.” That is what you want to see, you know?

[0:24:25.7] RS: Yeah and are people afraid of the blowback or someone being like, “What do you mean you’re rejecting me? I am a great fit for this” or is it just that they can’t be bothered because we are not hiring this person, so they’re not of use to me. Why do you think people don’t bother to do this?

[0:24:41.2] DBS: I think it is just laziness because I had to spend half an hour doing it today and I got a million other things to do. You just have to commit to doing it. I will tell you this though, if someone replies back to me because most of the time I’ll actually use my name because you can have a temp from like a non-reply, right?

[0:24:59.9] RS: Yeah.

[0:25:00.4] DBS: But most of the time I don’t care, it could be for me, I’m good but if someone replies back and says, “Hey, you know you just rejected me. You didn’t even talk to me, you’re not sure, we haven’t met” and if I look at their background and I think there’s a really high chance that I’m going to talk to that person because to me that shows like, “Hey, you know what? Good for you, let’s have a chat. You still may not be qualified but I am going to give you 30 minutes of my time because I appreciate you getting back.”

You don’t really know based on the resume, you really do have to talk to people sometimes. So when people reply back to me, I definitely talk to them.

[0:25:34.9] RS: Yeah and there is versions of that like if they are just being—you could probably tell if it’s worth having the conversation. Maybe they say something like, “Hey, I really feel like I didn’t put my best foot forward in that phone screen” or in that onsite. “I don’t know if you’ve got a good look at me, can we chat about this?” like why not? Why would you not want to take that call?

[0:25:52.7] DBS: I have a really good story if you want to hear it about.

[0:25:55.5] RS: Yeah, I do.

[0:25:56.6] DBS: Something like this, okay. So I am all about second chances and early on at Socotra, I interviewed a candidate. The role was called a solutions engineer and funny enough is I didn’t realize he was actually in Ireland. So for him, it was 1:30 AM and I was like, “Why didn’t you tell me? We could have made this at a more suitable time.” He didn’t say anything and I didn’t know.

I thought he was on the East Coast, so it started off like that, and I have major empathy, right? Anyway, great amazing candidate, super excited for him to move to the tech screen. So he did the tech screen and basically, I forgot the engineer that did it, they just passed. Like passed, I am going to use his name. So the candidate’s name was Kevin. So Kevin reached out to me and he’s like, “Dubi, I totally did not have my best foot forward. I wasn’t prepared. Would you consider giving me a second chance?”

I said, “100%, you get back to me when you feel ready. You’re not going to get the same questions but at least you know what to kind of expect and I will absolutely give you another chance.” I know that doesn’t happen because companies don’t do that and if they do, it is very rare because again, it’s like a factory-like pass, didn’t pass obviously. So then Kevin reached back out to me.

I set him up for another technical interview and he actually did well. So we moved him to the onsite and this is when we were actually on site. So he came to the office in San Francisco, he interviewed with everyone and the hiring manager said, “Dubi, we actually really like Kevin. We want to hire him but for a different job, what do you think? Could you talk to him?” So then I had to pull like bait and switch.

So first, you got a second chance. Now I got to tell you we want you but it’s for a different job. So anyway, not only has it worked out amazingly, he is now a manager and he is one of the best employees at Socotra and that was just, it is willing to give people chances. Not everybody is on their best on that particular day and I do this a lot. So he’s my most successful story but I’ve got many like that where, “I’ll give you a second chance.”

[0:28:16.7] RS: Yeah, I love that and good for you for giving him a second chance and people aren’t email accounts. There is a human being on the other end of that with a heart and a brain connected to ears and eyes and all of that and it’s just easy. It is like a very transactional world and I don’t know, if there’s anxiety about sending negative emails but come on, our species used to hunt woolly mammoths with sharpened sticks.

You can send an email and you can deal with the response, right? We can conquer that anxiety I think through empathy frankly, right?

[0:28:46.3] DBS: Exactly Rob, I totally agree. It all goes back to my 18 months of searching for my perfect job. I just think if somebody gave me that chance that Kevin got, I probably wouldn’t have waited 18 months but you know, they look at a resume, they don’t even talk to you, that is unfortunate sometimes.

[0:29:02.4] RS: Yeah and I’m sure that just spending that much time as a candidate right now makes you a better recruiter, right? It’s like I would never do that to somebody.

[0:29:11.1] DBS: Never ever but actually when I first, a couple of the first hires I made, I had to coach while my boss said to me, “You know you work for us and not the candidates, right?” I’m like, “Well, you’re paying me.”

[0:29:25.2] RS: I don’t know that actually, yeah.

[0:29:26.6] DBS: Yeah, I said, “You’re paying me but actually I work for both because it’s a mutual thing here. It’s not one way” so that was interesting.

[0:29:36.5] RS: Yeah, I love that. Well Dubi, we are creeping up on optimal podcast length here having covered exactly zero percent of the things we said we were going to try to cover but that’s okay though. I mean, I feel great about this. I feel great about this conversation. This was really lovely, chatting with you. So at this point, I would just say thank you so much for being here and for sharing your experience.

I’ve loved chatting with you and I am sure the people out there in podcast land have loved it too. So thank you so much Dubi for being here.

[0:30:06.3] DBS: Well, thanks, Rob. I really enjoyed it, anytime.


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