While many people view imposter syndrome as a negative experience, today’s guest Sanja Mitar will not accept a job unless she experiences it. After studying child and youth care, she found herself in a job at Shopify where her ability to network and her willingness to be coached led her into HR. She is now the director of talent acquisition at smile.io.
[00:00:05] RS: Welcome to Talk Talent To Me, a podcast featuring the most elite talent leaders on the front lines of modern recruitment.
[00:00:12] SPEAKER 1: We actually want to understand the themes of someone’s life. We want to understand how they make decisions. Are they willing to take risks? And what it looks like when they fail.
[00:00:22] RS: No holds barred, completely off-the-cuff interviews, with directors of recruitment, VPs of global talent, CHROs, and everyone in between.
[00:00:29] SPEAKER 2: Once I went through the classes and the trainings and got the certifications through diversity and inclusion, I still felt like something was missing.
[00:00:39] SPEAKER 3: Talent acquisition, it’s a fantastic career. You are trusted by the organization. You get to work with the C-suite, and the security at the front desk, and everybody in between, and everybody knows you.
[00:00:52] RS: I’m your host, Rob Stevenson. And you’re about to hear the best in the biz Talk Talent To Me.
[00:00:59] RS: Joining me today for this installment of Talk Talent to Me is the Director of Talent Acquisition over at Smile.io, Sanja Mitar. Sanja, welcome to the show. How are you today?
[00:01:08] SM: Hi, Rob. I’m great. How are you doing?
[00:01:11]RS: I am splendid. Thanks so much for asking. I’m so pleased you’re here. I have so many things I want to talk to you about. But first, how are you? Tell me about your week and what you’re working on right now, what’s top of mind for you? I want to get all of this on you. Have it all in.
[00:01:23] SM: Sure. Yeah. I actually just came back from Punta Cana for a nice week away with my partner. This week is all about catch-up, as I’m sure most recruiters know, when the pipelines haven’t been looked at in a week, things can get pretty messy and pretty overloaded. So just to work in on some catch-up.
[00:01:39] RS: Were you able to fully unplug or were you naughty and check your email?
[00:01:42] SM: Oh, I didn’t check my email once, but I did check Slack once, which is like a huge deal. I muted the notifications. I came back to a whopping like 63 missed notifications or something, but was able to hold off checking until Sunday, which was literally glorious. It was magical.
[00:01:58] RS: Amazing. Was that stressful, though, like that giant pile of unread emails and notifications?
[00:02:03] SM: I would say no. Like, yes and no. I think it’s so normal now to have just so many notifications and things like that, that I kind of was like, “You know what, like it’s fine. Nothing’s on fire. Everybody’s okay. I’ll get to when I get to it.” I think that honestly just comes with experience. So no, it was not. Though, if you talk to me back when I first started in recruitment and in tech, yes, that number would have been like freakishly annoying and also very like distraughtful, I would say. But this time, it was fine.
[00:02:31] RS: That’s a really good point. When you are early in your career, you’re like, “Oh my God! This person asked me for this thing. I’m going to get fired if I don’t respond to it.” Whereas like once you have some reps, you’re like, “If this was really, really crucial, they’d be kicking down my door about it, like it’s fine.” Email is asynchronous communication. You don’t need to get a response right away.
[00:02:49] SM: Totally. Well, actually, on my Slack, I have a Slack channel dedicated to recruiting. Prior to leaving, like, “Hey! If there’s any emergencies, this is the number you can text me at,” but not realizing that my phone was going to be on airplane mode. If they didn’t have an Apple phone, or iMessage, like I wasn’t going to get it anyway. I kind of was like, “Oh, that probably wasn’t the greatest message to leave,” but that’s fine. Nobody’s texted, nobody died. We’re good. We’re good.
[00:03:12] RS: Yeah. I’m glad you were able to unplug a little bit. There’s this great Onion article that goes something like, “Man on the cusp of relaxing suddenly remembers all of his responsibilities”. Like that’s definitely been me on vacation, where it’s like, you can’t really get away from thinking about work or like you can’t help, like check your email once or twice. It’s really hard to fully unplug. The one time I was super relaxed when I was between jobs. I was like, I don’t even have a slack. I’ve been deactivated from one. I haven’t activated the other. That was like truly relaxing. But I think as you get further on in your career, it becomes more important to like draw that boundary, less even like, “Oh! I have the reps, but it’s more about my mental health and my sanity relies on me being able to completely check out of this.”
[00:04:02] SM: Absolutely. Also, I think like the organization that you’re with, and your team is so crucial to that too. Like I have such a great team that integrate lead that I know has it covered when I’m away. That definitely helps as well. Is that trust. But yeah, it’s so crucial.
[00:04:16] RS: Yeah, that’s my approach too, is like, I try and sprint on the way into vacation. Like, the harder I work right before, like the more I’m able to relax, I find.
[00:04:24] SM: A thousand percent, yeah. If everything’s done before you leave or most things, it makes it so much easier. If you’ve got stuff that’s outstanding, that’s when I find them like up in the middle of the night. Just checking, you’re trying to get things done. But I didn’t bring my laptop with me, which is like, that in and of itself is a feat. Usually, my laptop is with me all the time in case. So this time, I was like, absolutely not. It’s not coming with me. My phone was a breeze. It’s the laptop that was like the big decision maker for me.
[00:04:49] RS: Yeah, that’s really smart. Like you need to create a system, by which you cannot –
[00:04:54] SM: Exactly.
[00:04:54] RS: You need to create a system by which it makes it really hard to do the thing you don’t want to do, right?
[00:04:59] SM: Exactly.
[00:04:59] RS: Even simple things like, I was able to get my screen time on my phone down like 30 percent, just by leaving it outside of my office while I work, right? Because now I’m just like not absent mindedly picking it up. I didn’t do anything but leave it 15 feet further away from me. You just make it slightly harder if you do the thing you don’t want to do. And guess what, you won’t do it.
[00:05:20] SM: That’s so true. I also find that those Apple automatic notifications on your screen time make me like not want to pick up my phone as much. Like seeing how much time actually spent just on it makes me just want to be like, “Okay. You just need time away from this thing, like this is not healthy.
[00:05:35] RS: Yeah. When you look at all this time, it’s like, “Wow! I could have learned Mandarin. I could take up tennis?” What are all the things I could have done if I wasn’t being sucked into this device? I was specifically designed to do that.
[00:05:46] SM: Totally, a hundred percent. Yeah.
[00:05:48] RS: But anyway, Sanja, we should at some point here talking about recruitment.
[00:05:51] SM: I think so.
[00:05:53] RS: We’re meant to do that. I’m excited to hear about what you’re working on. Before we get into that, would you mind sharing a little bit about your background and kind of what brought you to your current role?
[00:06:01] SM: Sure, absolutely. My background actually isn’t in tech, or recruiting at all or in human resources at all. I actually went to school for something that’s called Child and Youth Care, so counseling youth, high risk youth. Really, my entry into tech was kind of – I stumbled into it and I think it sounds like it’s a more common story these days. But back in 2015, 2016. I was living in Ottawa, Canada. Shopify was huge at the time. Bunch of my friends were working there. I was actually working at a gym close by, where Harley Finkelstein, Chad Hurley was working out. I kind of been like exposed to Shopify, though, I had no idea about really what working in tech was like. A bunch of my friends actually were like, “Hey! You should definitely apply.” I had just kind of realized that child and youth care probably wasn’t going to be for me. Severe burnout is quite common in that field. You kind of need to work like three or four jobs to make a living wage and I just kind of realized like this isn’t in alignment with who I would like to be as a person external of my work.
I was kind of looking for this career change, and so at that time, these friends from Shopify, were like, “Hey! Come join us. This is an awesome place to work.” I have visited the office a few times, like talk about something incredible, right? Like you’re walking in and they’ve got this cafeteria, and people are just hanging out and loving their life within their workplace. I always kind of had that impostor syndrome of like, “Hey! I can’t work in tech. I know nothing about this.” So some time passed, I said, “No, I’m not going to apply. I’m not going to apply.” Then finally one day, I just said, “You know what, what am I going to lose? Let’s try it.”
One of the really notable things about this story is really my interview process as I went through this, because that’s really where I think my interest in recruitment starts. I had an amazing first interview with Dustin Berthiaume. Shout out, Dustin, from Shopify. He really kind of made me feel so comfortable in that interview process, really made me feel heard, understood like my background like history. It wasn’t that like achy interview process that you kind of hear that often happens, right? A lot of those strengths, weaknesses kind of questions. So yeah, so I ended up actually joining Shopify, got the job, which was really exciting, as a support guru. Started there.
It was incredibly challenging, very, very difficult as I imagined it to be not being in tech, but ultimately amazing. It was so rewarding. I loved everything about it. I love the fast-paced nature of it. I kind of got to the point about six months in where I started to think about okay, “Well, where do I want to go with this?” Do I want to stay in support? I always kind of came back to recruitment, and that amazing experience that I had with Dustin. So then I decided, well, let’s like try. Let’s try to move from one team to another and that took about six months. Six months of really, really hard work.
Then, I actually ended up meeting my friend, mentor and previous boss at Shopify. I call her probably one of the most influential people to my career, Jennifer [inaudible 00:08:49]. She actually started at Shopify, and was leading up the partnerships recruitment team. She was looking for somebody internal to help with research and coordination. Somehow, I’m still not even actually sure to this day how, but she heard of me and we decided to have a coffee chat. Through that chat, she really just was asking me about my experience and all this stuff and I had none in recruitment, but I had all this Shopify context and knowledge. She was like, “Hey! I think I want you to join my team,” which was huge for me. Like I was like, that’s incredible. I get to learn all this stuff and I get to be a part of this team, this new team. So, yeah. I started my journey really recruitment there at Shopify, with the partnerships team.
Shortly after that, Shopify decided to go international, and so, she and I, along with others, really kind of made the first efforts at going international from a recruiting perspective, which was an incredible experience. It was awesome. Then did that for about a year and a half, two years. And then decided like, “Okay. I kind of want to go see what this smaller company vibe is like.” Then I joined the smaller retail company called Foko Retail, with some amazing folks as well. To me, great leaders are just like amazing at companies, like they really allow you to grow. At Foko, I was really, really lucky to get a great leader named Mark [inaudible 00:10:04] who also really took a chance on me, I would say. I was their head of HR, head of people and culture for about a year until they got acquired.
That actually is what led me to Smile. During that acquisition process, I decided – I don’t think like being the head of people or HR is kind of my jam, nothing against it. But I really get a thrill out of recruiting and talent acquisition, that’s where my love is. When Smile reached out to have a chat, I willingly and excitedly was like, “Let’s chat about this.” I was really drawn to their mission, and people and again, the leaders and things like that. Then, at Smile now for about nine months, ten months-ish and it’s been quite a wild ride.
[00:10:41] RS: Amazing. I love hearing all about your journey. I’m really interested in that moment when I think you said, Jen [inaudible 00:10:48] was her name, sort of tapped you on the shoulder and was like, “Hey! I think you should be on my team. I think you should join the talent team.” Did you have any assumption of like, what were your preexisting skills or talents that made her think, “Oh, you know what, Sanja would be a success over here”?
[00:11:02] SM: Yeah, that’s a good question. Honestly, I’ve asked myself that question a lot. I think impostor syndrome was really big. I think if I was going to put anything down to answer this question, I think it would be, I was pretty good at networking, and being really kind of like extroverted and fostering those relationships. I think, for her, really, the Shopify context was really, really valuable. Being brand new and walking into partnerships. I think she really wanted somebody that had a really good understanding of the company, its verticals, like what they were working on. Then in terms of the skill, yeah, like I think the networking, the amount of people that I had met, that I knew across the company. My skills kind of within counseling, as well.
A lot of the skills within counseling are very transferable into recruitments, such things like active listening, and really being engaged and bias awareness and all of these things. To be honest, I really think like one of the main things too is, we just genuinely got along. I think she just kind of saw like, “Oh! This is the person that is very junior, but they are coachable.” I think when anyone like when I see somebody that’s very junior, but very coachable. It’s really, really enticing because you’re like, “Oh! I could really actually maximize this person’s growth in a very short amount of time.” I think that’s it, though, I’d be really interested to take her take on it as well and ask her. I don’t think I’ve actually ever asked her.
[00:12:20] RS: I can see how, when you change functions, what was the role you were doing before that?
[00:12:25] SM: I was in support. I was a support guru.
[00:12:28] RS: Got it. I can see how when you would change functions like that, that seems like a total recipe for impostor syndrome, right? Because impostor syndrome rears its head to people, and every level of experience and in every function, I think. But I can see how particularly when you’re doing a completely new job and a completely new team. What did that mean for you at that time? How did you kind of reckon with it?
[00:12:48] SM: Yeah. I think I had impostor syndrome joining Shopify, worse than I did ever before. I think that’s kind of the first time that it happened. It was no different this time starting a new role, especially because now – so in support, everything was very structured, everything was very like, you had to be on chats at a certain time, on phones at a certain time. Now, you get into this world of recruitment, and really any other team, and you’re kind of left to think of your own schedule and to make your own schedule. And you’ve got these external meetings with all these external stakeholders, and it was very, very different. There was an element of excitement, right, so that kind of took over a little bit of the impostor syndrome.
But I think really what allowed me to kind of get past it was the understanding of like, hey! You don’t know what you don’t know, so why get really worked up over that when really, you’re in this state of just massive amounts of learning and information retention right now and gathering. From both times – and really, I take that into any role that I join, because I’ll tell you right now, I don’t take a role unless I feel that impostor syndrome. Because it if I don’t get that, that just means that I’m too comfortable and I’m probably not going to be challenged enough.
In any role that I go into, I have that feeling, and when I get into that feeling, I kind of just calm myself down by saying, “You don’t know what you don’t know right now, but you’re going to learn. You’ve done it so many times all over again now and that’s fine. You’ve just got to be willing to show up and actually learn.”
[00:14:12] RS: I love that. That completely turned the fear-based approach to impostor’s mind head, I think. Because if you don’t feel impostor syndrome, then like you said, you’re too comfortable. Like if you are stepping into a role and you’re like, “I know all of this, like I’m an all-star. I’m going to crush this.” Then like, you’re selling yourself short, right? Like you’re not being challenged. Like that feels like it’s probably a bad roll. It feels like it’s probably a recipe for complacency.
[00:14:37] SM: A thousand percent, yeah. I think it’s really easy to take the easy route or the route that doesn’t leave you feeling like that. But I think it’s much more rewarding, just like you said, to take something. And listen, like it’s not to say that every single time it’s going to work out, right. I’m constantly actually like, I think I’ve been pretty fortunate to take these. I call them risks, right? Because a lot of them are risks, like what happens if I don’t learn this or if I’m not good at it, right? What happens if I don’t deliver? I haven’t had it come down to a situation where it’s turned out negatively. But I’m sure at some point in my career, I will and that will happen and I’ll have to reevaluate that impostor syndrome and the ability to take those risks. But I would rather have that feeling and that drive, right, and that excitement to learn than kind of walk into something and just say, “Oh! I know for 1000%, I can do this. It’s not going to be difficult.” And ultimately, probably actually be bored in like, by six months, right? Like, that just doesn’t sound fun. It just doesn’t sound like something I’d be really interested in.
[00:15:36] RS: I don’t think – I’m certainly not qualified to go into the conditions that result the psychological conditions that result in impostor syndrome. But like take it from when you start feeling, like you said, you don’t know what you don’t know. What can you do, but just try really hard? What can you do, but just learn as fast as you can, and learn from experts and listen to podcasts?
[00:15:59] SM: Exactly.
[00:16:00] RS: If you’re feeling that impostor syndrome, I don’t know, like use it as a vehicle to get better, right?
[00:16:04] SM: A thousand percent yeah. I think for anybody listening, that might be feeling impostor syndrome, resourcefulness and resiliency, I think are the two main drivers of success. None of those two things require heavy skill based, right? like learning or understanding. They require you to actually just be proactive, and just to show up and to work really, really hard. I think those are the two main drivers, at least they have been for me. I’m sure it’s different for everyone else and I’m not qualified to go into the – well, anymore really, into the psychology of impostor syndrome. But those are the things that have worked for me and it’s worked so far three, four times over, so it’s a pretty good success rate.
[00:16:41] RS: Yeah, makes sense. Well, Sanja, I really want to hear more about kind of what you’re working on now, and what the state of the recruiting union is over there at Smile. What are some of the roles you’re working on? What’s the makeup of the team? I just love to learn about your day to day?
[00:16:56] SM: Yeah, for sure. I’m actually one-person team. Have been for the whole 10 months in terms of talent acquisition, specifically. We do have a people ops function, as well. Yeah. So one person team, and currently, what we’re working on, we actually just did like a huge hiring spree. We’re just allowing the team to really get caught up, gain some velocity, and really kind of start jiving together. It’s really, really important I think to not overload the business with new hires. It can just be very negative for those people and for the business. We’re taking a little bit of a step back, especially before the holidays as well.
Right now, I’m working on a few roles, some pretty exciting ones. But more than that, looking at just kind of refining a few of our processes. It’s been 10 months since I joined, and since we’ve added some foundational processes, and kind of added some layers to the recruitment strategy, and things like that. It’s a really good time right now to do a retro on certain things. So how we evaluate within the process, what our hiring managers are going to be, kind of what their role is within that process as well, and just how the business kind of reacts to the interview process as a whole.
So yeah, so things are keeping me on my toes, for sure. But not – I would say it’s a 50:50 split between recruiting, so that kind of like hands on I see work filling roles. And then on the other side, a mixture of the strategic kind of vision for what talent acquisition looks like for the next year, and what employer branding looks like for the next year as well.
[00:18:17] RS: I’m sure lots of folks out there in podcast land are also in the throes of conducting their retro and looking back on their year. What’s that process been like for you? Are you just looking at metrics on your total headcount? How are you trying to measure 2021?
[00:18:32] SM: Yeah, that’s a great question. Definitely metrics. Now, we actually just – well, not just. but we implemented rates, yes, shortly after I joined. So it is going to take a little bit of time to really be able to dive into kind of more of those candidate metrics and things like that. But we’ve got a good starting point right now, so definitely metrics. We’re really – actually, I’m really, really interested in understanding, like how happy are the people that we’ve added, how did they find the interview process and doing a lot of that more qualitative research with the folks that we’ve got, and the folks that have joined within the last six months. So that we get really good data points on where we can do better, right?
We’ve got candidates surveys, that gets sent out at particular phases within the journey. But, to be honest, the response rate on those are quite low. We don’t actually end up getting too much information. But I do find doing retros with folks that have joined and been here for quite some time, that helps us really understand what their process was like, where we can be better, where are the inefficiencies, where are the opportunities and things like that. Conducting interviews and stuff like that, but more internally than externally.
[00:19:35] RS: Got it. Who do you speak with?
[00:19:36] SM: Everyone, really. Those new hires, that’s kind of number one. Number two, we’re talking with like hiring managers. To me, kind of veering a little bit. But to me, the staple of like a really solid recruitment process is always going to be partnership over service driven. Service driven, not to say that it doesn’t work or that it can’t work. But my philosophy really as it relates to recruitment, is that you have to have strong partnerships with the business. That’s actually what allows you to understand the business, right? It allows you to get a full-on awesome picture of what’s going on in that business. So that when you’re actually talking to candidates, putting up processes, setting things up. You can give a very accurate story of what’s happening within the organization.
Bringing that back, we’re talking to hiring managers, talking about what their experiences were like throughout hiring processes, where they think it could be more efficient, where they think that it can be better, any of our technical kind of components or challenges where we can do better there. So yeah, kind of talking to everybody on the whole, but again, more on that kind of qualitative side of things, I would say. And on the quantitative then really diving into kind of the ATS, and all of the data-driven stuff behind the time to hire, dates to fill, all that good stuff.
[00:20:50] RS: Got it. So are some of the questions you’d ask in the case of the hiring manager, you’re trying to not just be, like you said, it’s service oriented, you want to develop this partnership and team up with these folks. What are you kind of asking to make sure that you are able to kind of give them what they want?
[00:21:06] SM: Yeah. That’s a great question. I don’t think it’s necessarily like what I’m asking them. I think it’s actually the trust and the frequency at which were actually chatting. To me, like I set up for sure a monthly, which to some people actually might be too little, but a monthly department kind of retro. What happened in the month? What are we looking at the month ahead? What’s going on in the team? Right? Like, is there any sort of site of attrition? Is there any sort of signs of possibly new headcount opening? What are the opportunities within the team? What are the gaps in the team?
To me, I think it’s actually like, there are those questions that give us that information. But the frequency at which and the trust that’s built by doing that really gives me a really good insight into like how the team is functioning, right? Then also, when I’m speaking to candidates where their team allows me to tell the candidates like this is what you can expect within this team. This is the level of ownership that you can expect, this is the level of support that you can expect and things like that.
A two pronged approach there in terms of the questions, just your very surface level ones in the sense of what’s going on. But also, just making sure that I have a really good pulse of what’s happening in each department, and that every hiring manager feels like they can come and talk to me about some things, especially as it relates to their people, and the growth of their team or just the health of their team.
[00:22:21] RS: This insight into how teams operate, the needs of individual teams, what the roles entail, and even just what the whole hiring process looks like, soups and nuts. This does allow you to be more specific to be more accurate, I suppose. When you were speaking to candidates throughout the process. How much of that do you believe lies on your shoulders or the talent representative shoulders as opposed to the team interviewing and the hiring manager? Is it your job to kind of lay out, kind of show them the lay of the land or do you rely on the hiring managers be like, “Look, listen. Here’s the real situation in this role. Warts and all, what have you”? Where does that responsibility lie in your view?
[00:22:59] SM: Yeah, I think it’s everyone’s responsibility. Though, I would say it’s a 50:50 split between the hiring manager and myself, for sure. I think, I don’t want to waste anyone’s time. I never want to waste anyone’s time. To my main kind of, I guess, pillars, values, philosophies, what have you within recruitment is transparency. That’s number one, a thousand percent. I will always be transparent with candidates to a certain degree, of course. The second is starting to draw out candidate experience, and just understanding like, hey, we need to be able to be empathetic and compassionate. But that transparency is really where it starts, and so I always take the first call with our candidates, right, and I’m always the one to have that initial chat with them.
I don’t want to waste anyone’s time. If I know that the team has gone through some changes recently, maybe leaderships left, maybe it’s a brand-new team, so they’re just kind of trying to get their processes together. They don’t have everything figured out. I feel that’s kind of on me to let this candidate know about that, right? So then they can make the decision. Do I actually want to be a part of a team that’s within this phase? Do I want to go on into the next conversation potentially with the hiring manager and talk more about that? I think if we don’t provide that level of transparency, we’re actually just doing the candidate disservice. I think it lies on both of us to provide as much information so the candidate really gets a good understanding of what they’re walking into.
Like picture, like, if you were to take a new job, and everything sounded amazing, and then you got there and realize that like, well, everything’s not amazing. That would probably not feel that great, right? Like, you’d probably be like, well, you had all this ample time to tell me certain things weren’t functioning properly and you just didn’t. I made this decision based on the information that you gave me. You probably wouldn’t be that happy.
[00:24:44] RS: Yeah. I’m sure that happens every day and you would just leave. You would leave the company and then you as the recruiter would have to be back to square one filling that role and that person has a worse opinion of how talent operates.
[00:24:59] SM: Exactly, yeah. I just don’t, as a recruiter and I kind of think I’ve always been this way. But I really love placing people in roles where they feel really fulfilled and where they’re really happy. And they feel like if we don’t provide or if I don’t provide all the information necessary for them to be able to make the most accurate decision, I feel like I’m simply – I don’t know, lying or just not being truthful. I don’t know how you look at somebody in the face when that happens afterwards. Do you know what I mean? Like I just wouldn’t be able to do it and your peers are your people that you’re working with, right? It’s like, you want to create that trust. Without that trust, it’s very difficult to create really great relationships. So yeah, it would be really tough for me not to, as you put it, share the warts and all approach. I think I just wouldn’t be able to do my job effectively.
[00:25:47] RS: Yeah. That makes sense. Well, Sanja, we are creeping up on optimal podcast length here. Before I let you go, I’m going to put it on you to kind of delicately thread this needle and bring us home. I’d love if you would just share some advice for the folks out there in podcast land. If someone’s listening to this, and they’re just wondering, how can I be critical about my own skill set? How can I reflect on how to get better at the role? What would your advice be to them?
[00:26:10] SM: Oh gosh! That is a great question. Well, I think, be aware of your current skill set and the things that you need to work on and what are the things that you want to learn. Get really, really great mentors. Those are so valuable, they’ll pay off in spades if you’ve got great people around you, and just be resourceful and resilient. Right? Like I said, you don’t know what you don’t know. The only way to find out is to learn. So put in the work, be resourceful. The Internet got 1001 resources. Podcasts are a great place to start, and just seek out that information, and ask questions, build connections and it will happen. It will come.
[00:26:48] RS: Sanja, this has been great chatting with you. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. I’ve loved meeting you today.
[00:26:52] SM: Thank you, Rob. I’ve enjoyed it thoroughly.
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