amina

Segment’s Head of Recruiting & Recruiting Manager

Amina Mounuddin, Emily ZahutaSegment's Recruiting Manager, Head of Recruitment

Amina “Value Add” Mounuddin and Emily Zahuta join to discuss the level of sophistication they’ve enjoyed on the recruiting team at Segment, as well as how best to partner with internal stakeholders and develop and execute against OKRs.

Episode Transcript

[music]

00:10 Rob Stevenson: Hello again, my sweet precious talent acquisition blueberries. Rob Stevenson here, at the helm of your favorite Recruiting Podcast. And I am thrilled as ever to be broadcasting once more, even now my voice is hurtling through space and time, bouncing off a satellite and ricocheting into your ear buds, where you are listening to me on public transit or on the treadmill or while pretending to work. That’s how I listen to podcasts anyway. If this is your first time tuning in, every week I bring in my favorite people in the recruitment space, Directors of recruitment, Heads of talent and VPs of HR, you name it, I get them in here, we turn on their mics, hope for the best and these guests do primarily one thing.

[music]

00:50 RS: Talk Talent To Me. And today I have an old friend and her boss. Let’s start with the old friend. Amina “Value-Add” Moinuddin, Segment’s recruiting manager. Amina, how are we?

01:01 Amina Moinuddin: I’m great, how are you Rob?

01:02 RS: Great, thanks for asking. Welcome back. It’s good to be in the studio with you again.

01:05 AM: It’s good to be back with you.

01:07 RS: How are the things going on at Segment?

01:09 AM: They’re going great.

01:10 RS: Yeah.

01:10 AM: We just announced, funding yesterday.

01:12 RS: Oh. Great.

01:13 AM: Which is really exciting for us. Lots of recruiting lots of growing.

01:17 RS: Right. So with that funding comes a hefty amount of new roles I imagine?

01:21 AM: It does. Lots of scaling globally, which is exciting.

01:24 RS: Cool. So how are you liking Segment? How do you like your boss?

[laughter]

01:30 AM: She is alright.

01:31 RS: Yeah.

01:31 AM: I’m just kidding, she’s great.

01:32 RS: This can be your skip level. One on one.

[laughter]

01:35 AM: Just include everybody else in the [01:37] ____…

[laughter]

01:39 RS: Exactly. Yeah.

01:39 AM: Segment is going great. I say this all the time and I know this sounds a little bit cheesy and maybe a little bit biased, but probably best company, best team, best role that I ever had before. And it feels very aligned in terms of what I’ve been wanting to do, which I’ve talked to you before is management and growing and thinking about leadership [02:00] ____ I don’t know, a recruiting team and being able to help grow a business. And this has been exactly that.

02:03 RS: So you have gotten exposed to some leadership opportunities?

02:07 AM: Yes.

02:08 RS: How has that gone?

02:09 AM: It’s great, I think… My team is seven recruiters right now, we’re looking to hire if anyone’s interested. Looking into hire recruiters as well, sourcers on the team. So a lot of opportunity to manage people as well as grow the team.

02:21 RS: I bet you’re a good boss?

02:21 AM: I hope so.

02:22 Emily Zahuta: She is.

02:23 RS: I know you’re good at checking in with people, but not making it obnoxious and weird. Just based on the way you manage your personal life, you just have like… You shared with me your personal calendar one time and it stressed me out ’cause it was looked like someone who was really bad at Tetris. ‘Cause it was just like block after block after block, but it’s like “dinner with so and so, sync up with this person, coffee with this person.” It was impressive. This is a long weird way of giving you a compliment and I hope it’s landing.

02:46 AM: Thank you, I appreciate it. It’s performance reviews this week, so hopefully it went well.

02:50 RS: I’ll lay it on extra thick.

02:53 AM: Just kidding, still 24 hours until delivery.

02:55 EZ: Yeah, that’s true. I still get mine tomorrow, so let’s see how it goes.

02:58 RS: Alright. There’s time. There’s time. Well, I guess I should give a proper intro to your boss here so that she can chime in as well. On Amina’s left is Segments, Head of Recruiting, Emily Zahuta. Emily welcome.

03:09 EZ: Thank you very much. Excited to be here.

03:11 RS: Yeah, excited to have you. How are things going on your end?

03:14 EZ: Things are going really well. Like Amina mentioned, we’re scaling so quickly and the business has changed really drastically in the two years since I’ve joined. And I think that that ride and having the different… Like it’s a different business every couple months, you’re doing something different, has been so wonderful and keeps it very fresh.

03:33 RS: So, are you… How are you feeling about your role in the wake of the fundraise?

03:39 EZ: I feel really great about it. I think the pressure is on to build a business, a recruiting team, an organization that scales along with what this funding means for the organization as a whole. So there’s definitely pressure there to be the next level of a leader to be able to support that additional growth, but it also feels really secure too. We all took a risk when joining Segment two plus years ago, we made the right choice and just like it kind of came full circle.

04:07 RS: Yes, there’s a feeling of validation and like it’s working, the company works.

04:11 EZ: Yes. Some safety and then also some opportunity to really step up and become that next level leader.

04:17 RS: So, in terms of these… All these new roles, you’re gonna have to fill, are hiring managers coming to you waving job descriptions around, are you giving a lot of feedback in terms of what the talent team can reasonably provide? How is this process of figuring out headcount going?

04:33 EZ: That is, I think, one of the major challenges with recruiting teams at any company.

04:38 RS: Sure.

04:40 EZ: It’s a combination of everything you just mentioned. So while we have hiring managers waving job descriptions saying we need to hire this brand new thing, we also are seeing a major increase in evergreen roles. So the roles that we feel comfortable doing, it’s just more volume in that sense. So building a team that can support that. A headcount planning, in general, we just hired a CFO within the last, what, six months. And I think building a really strong partnership with finance has been an incredibly eye-opening experience for me, and how headcount planning works from a financial perspective. That has made our process for planning net new hires, incredibly clean. So I think we’re kind of reaching the next generation of headcount planning, which helps us get ahead of it.

05:21 RS: So then, are you… This has been sort of the culmination of a lot of process building. So you’re not just like, “Ah, how do we fill all these roles?” You’re sort of actioned already to receive them. What are some of those processes you put in place?

05:35 EZ: So we think about recruiting capacity. So each person we have on our team, each team that recruits. So we have our go-to-market recruiting folks, we have our GNA recruiting folks and then we have our EPD, Engineering Product and Design and the number of roles that each of them fill quarterly is different just based on the seniority and the level of strategic hire it is, that they need to make. So, we’ve kind of figured out what capacity looks like for each team and then that’s helped us figure out how to staff the organization from there, as we receive recs or recommendations for roles that need to be filled, we can start resourcing our team internally and figuring out what we need to build. The addition of the finance layer has given us the heads up on what needs to be hired so much further in advance, so we’re no longer trailing a number, we’re kind of proactively leading the charge.

06:22 RS: Okay, and is that just because you know those roles traditionally take longer to fill?

06:26 EZ: Yes, exactly, so we’ll have… We’re pushing our executive team to think about headcount over the course of the year. This is nothing new, businesses do this, it’s just new for Segment.

06:35 RS: Sure.

06:35 EZ: And so that thought process and thinking what will you need in six months? What we need in a year? Has helped us say, “Okay, here’s when we could actually guarantee to have that person in seat, and we could start working on roles, but before they’re needed, before they’re critical.”

06:47 RS: Yes.

06:48 EZ: So it gives us the opportunity to be proactive and hiring in a way we haven’t been able to do before.

06:52 RS: Right, and I would imagine that asking them to think about what are you gonna need in six months or a year, also will cause them to reflect on the roles they’re hiring today because the person you’re hiring today, is not just “Oh, what’s this project I have that I’m supposed to get out by the end of Q2?” What does success in this role look like 10 months down the line, because what do you need in a year? It could be someone who you hire for this cycle. So, does that cause like a, is that an opportunity to re-evaluate open roles and job descriptions and that kind of thing?

07:20 EZ: Absolutely, it’s a great way to push the individual looking to hire, to think about, “Is it a project-based role or is this a long-term career move? And I think by forcing that thought process early on, it’s harder work, it’s more work up front for the hiring manager or the executive whoever it is, but the role becomes that much more compelling and we start thinking about the hire in terms of what they’ll grow into. So now we’re thinking about someone that’s gonna satisfy a need for two years or three years, within the company versus six months to nine months and then have to think about retention and losing them and re-filling the position.

07:53 RS: Right. Is that common? Do a lot of hiring managers make that mistake of trying to hire in the interest of a project-based approach?

08:01 AM: I’ve seen that more with newer hiring managers. I think those who have been hiring before and who have built out teams have a better idea of what that looks like. I think this is also an opportunity that I’ve been telling my team is that you are becoming a talent advisor, you’re not just a recruiter building out a role but you have the opportunity to push your hiring managers to push the executives also to start thinking about just look at the org as a whole. Don’t look at it just six months, don’t look at it just nine months down the line.

08:28 RS: Right, right.

08:29 EZ: It’s also… It depends on the function of the team that’s hiring. So if it’s a project-based org, think about operations, in some sense, they’re often working on projects that may span three months, a quarter or two quarters a year. And so I think it’s harder to explain to them how to think holistically about the growth of this person in the role versus someone who is filling a go-to-market role, if you’re hiring a marketer you’re gonna need a marketer over the span of a couple of years or a sales person, it’s less project-based. So it’s an easier conversation with someone who’s hiring someone that’s not doing project-based work.

09:06 RS: Right. Makes sense. Is it reasonable then to when you have a hiring manager, have them look at the three to four years of someone in this role, is that fair? Do people think of their own next job, in terms of that? Or is it 9 to 10 months to a year anyway? I’m just wondering about, what are the typical employee life cycles? If you’ve worked at somewhere a year you’re then much more likely to leave after that one year anniversary. Instead of project-based versus long-term is it also this idea of when you hire someone, how are you going to develop them within the organization to be that person that can stick around? So this is not exactly hiring related but this is like… Unless you wanna be hiring for that role again you need to figure out how to not lose someone after a year.

09:54 EZ: No I think I know what you’re saying and I think this comes with experience. So I’ve seen certain people be really, really good at this and they’re few and far between, where they can look at an open role and they can think, “Okay, this person will serve this immediate need, they should be in this role for about one year and at the one year mark they’re gonna be stale in the position, and so here’s how they’re gonna satisfy this other need that I need to fill in six months time, or nine month’s time.” So if they can think about their organization from a big picture growth perspective, you start to see the tiered levels of support, that are gonna be needed, and you start to see how you can grow this one hire to satisfy the need that you’ll have in a year or in a year and a half. And then the other piece of your question was, should you be thinking about this in terms of four to five years? I think that’s way too far out, especially, in the start-up world that we’re living in, I think a year is solid, I think two years is gold. And beyond that, the business will change so drastically, it probably should, that the needs will change, too. And I don’t think you need to project that far out.

10:52 RS: Right, right. And to your point Amina, about that kind of thing happening with newer Hiring Managers maybe it’s your role as a recruiter to sort of hold their hand and be like, “You need to be thinking about the need that this person can fill, after the next year.” So is there this consultative part to the role, then when you were dealing with hiring managers who don’t have experience like long-term planning like that?

11:17 AM: Yes definitely, and I think that’s something that we’ve been talking about a lot because we do have a lot of new hiring managers at Segment right now, especially on the go-to-market side. And so not only are they kicking off roles, but they’re really becoming those advisors to them and talking to them, not just about, “Okay, how do we message candidates, and how do we make this hire? But let’s think about your org holistically, let’s think about… ” Conversations that we’re having now too, is let’s look at the people that you have on your org today. What are the skill sets that they have, what are the skill sets that you have as a manager? What should we be tying that into your next hire? Are there areas that you think that you’re optimizing for because, that’s going to help your business and that’s going to help your team?

11:54 EZ: There’s another piece of this too is starting to jump in. But I really think playing off of what you just said is interesting. In our market today, yes, it’s candidate-driven. Candidates are smarter about job changes than they ever have been before. They’re asking deeper questions about not only the longevity of the role, but the longevity of their career within one organization. And so if you don’t have your story correct and you can’t put your money where your mouth is there, that’s gonna come right back around and bite you where it hurts. So yes, it’s valuable to have this crafted to build the ruck to identify the right talent, but you really need this if you’re gonna be competitive in the market place to secure the talent that you ultimately really want versus the person that doesn’t know to ask these questions.

12:36 RS: Right. What do you mean by securing the talent that you actually want? Are you just… Having had that conversation with the hiring manager, are you saying you’re just better actioned to receive hire talent or to develop talent into becoming better talent?

12:48 EZ: I think it’s a combination of the two. I think you get hire potential. I think the people that understand how to ask the questions about the way an organization is developing and how it will ultimately affect their career and their growth are the ones that will ultimately grow within your company. They are gonna be the longer term hire.

13:06 RS: Yes.

13:06 EZ: So if you don’t have that plan and you don’t have that strategy sorted and the conversation and the story ready to go, you’ll miss talent that’s gonna be asking those questions and doesn’t see the dots connected.

13:16 RS: Yes, okay, so when you have that sort of planning in place when you get in front of more mature talent and by that, I mean someone who has probably been burned by a company who wasn’t…

13:26 EZ: Exactly.

13:26 RS: Didn’t have that plan and just like, “Okay, forget your ping pong tables and forget your company retreat to wine country, how are you going to develop me as a person over the next three, four years? Because I’d like to stay at this place, I don’t wanna be looking for a job in a year.” And so, that’s someone who is probably a little further along in their career. And if you don’t have an answer to that question, they’re gonna be like, “Alright, well, thanks but no thanks.”

13:46 EZ: That’s exactly what I’m saying.

13:47 RS: Cool, Well that’s our show everyone.

[laughter]

13:48 AM: Bye.

13:51 RS: No, I have more things I wanna talk to you about. Emily, you had mentioned to me that you are really pleased with the level of sophistication you see at Segment, particularly, given its size and that you don’t expect that, normally, at a company that size. What does that mean? What does sophistication mean to you in Segment, anyway?

14:08 EZ: Yeah, so I can… A couple of things, when I was, initially, considering Segment before I joined, there were a few things I saw in place that made it extremely attractive to me. Recruiting had a seat at the executive table through our VP of HR.

14:20 RS: Love that.

14:20 EZ: She had a recruiting background, which to me, felt like the money spot because I knew she could represent us at a level that we really needed to be represented and she could speak our language to the executive team.

14:32 RS: Which they often don’t, right?

14:34 EZ: No.

14:34 RS: Like, the most senior HR person often doesn’t have recruiting experience, right?

14:39 EZ: Exactly.

14:39 RS: It’s usually, it’s like the most senior HR role is usually like a stopping point on the way to being a CEO or something.

14:45 EZ: Which I think was a really key piece in the success of everything that I’ve seen built just because she knew how to push back on the executive team in ways that I wasn’t prepared to do yet, being brand new into the organization, so as I considered the company, that was one thing that was really, really clear to me. I also felt like the executive team had their story down. Why this was the place to come join, why it was a compelling opportunity for candidates. And so right off the bat, we were able to hire some really key technical talent, which I think was a major building block for our success. Now, taking a step back, two years plus in this company, there are a few things that have happened over time that I think, are key to the level of sophistication we’re at today. One of them has been, we skipped over the wild-wild-west years of recruiting, where we have… We had a contract recruiter turn into a, basically, a recruiting analyst for us, to help us understand our data and better leverage it and grow using that data. Being a data company, that was pretty important.

15:43 RS: Yes, I love that. I’ve been trying to get like a marketing analyst role on my team for years now. I was like, “I want someone who’s entire job is to just be looking at data, and hammering on it, and giving us insights.” That… ’cause otherwise that ends up being in addition to the team, to your regularly scheduled programming as marketing or as recruiting and it’s like, “Oh well, you have to be data-driven.” It’s like “Okay, great. Well, I can’t just be looking at data all day, I need to be executing.”

16:08 EZ: I, often, see it as an after-thought for so many leaders in recruiting. It would have been for me too, full transparency, but having Vivek kind of transform into this person… Should I say his name? Shout out to Vivek.

16:22 RS: Shout out to Vivek, yeah.

[laughter]

16:23 AM: To Vivek.

16:24 RS: I did a hundred odd episodes with him back in the day, like in the battle days. [chuckle]

16:29 AM: Bringing the old crew back. [chuckle]

16:30 RS: I know. Putting the band back together.

16:32 EZ: It’s a shameless plug. He helped us better leverage our data and started getting me thinking about this on a different level, probably, earlier than I would have. We, also, promoted a really, really strong RC into a Programs Manager. And so, she was running all of our events and she’s been key in helping us kick off a lot of the branding execution work that needs to be done in order for us to continue to grow at the speed and scale we need to grow. And the final piece that I’ll touch on and then I’d love your thoughts too Amina, is when… Early on, we had a recruiting advocate in our, now, Chief Product Officer who, basically, just encouraged the executive team to spend the money, invest the time and energy in recruiting early on. And understand that the team might look a little bigger for the size of the rest of the company for a bit, but that set us up to be so successful as we’ve hit 300 people, and now 350 plus. So, I think, those were a few of the key structural pieces that made this…

17:31 RS: Yeah, I love that you were able to develop an RC into a Programs Manager. You said you gave them some events, maybe they take over university recruiting. And when you go out to get another RC, it’s sort of like, “Hey, there’s a path for you that’s not just sourcer or recruiter. We can be a little creative about where you end up. And here’s an example,” because if a company tells you that, “We want this role to grow beyond this,” it’s like, “Okay, well that’s a nice thing to say in an interview. Has it actually happened in org before? Can you point to that person and prove it?” So that, when you’re going out to hire RCs it’s like “oh, we can be a little more creative because it can be a thankless job. And probably not super easy to hire for sometimes.”

18:10 EZ: Yeah, it’s been a great success story and I think it’s helped us, as we’re hiring RCs right now, using her as an example has been great. And full credit goes to the manager on our EPD recruiting side who hired her and grew her into this, and recognized that that was her strength. So I won’t take credit for that but the fact that we were able to find a place for her on our team in a role that we hadn’t seen before and make that happen, to me, speaks a different level of sophistication that I was really impressed with.

18:37 RS: Right, right, absolutely.

18:39 AM: I think it also speaks to us, supporting somebody finding what they’re really interested in, creating a role for themselves, us helping advocate and navigate through that, and then seeing the impact. And just to show the recruiting programs, we’re starting to launch a lot of different branding initiatives, and I’m seeing a lot of that impact on the go-to-market side. And so, not only that, not only is that sophistication and growth within our org, but it’s impacting directly our pipelines, it’s impacting directly our ability to make hires.

19:08 RS: Right, right, definitely. This company is putting into place these processes, there’s all these great examples of growth, and hiring manager diplomacy, and putting into place the sophistication. I am curious, though, still as a small company, right? Still, as a “start-up,” what is the sweet spot between, we’re gonna put in process that will help us and we have all this red tape?

19:35 EZ: We have been pretty clear about our non-negotiables as far as what needs to be clean and in place in order to scale long term. And some of it does feel a little heavy. Like our data collection for recruiting, we’ve had to educate the team, a lot, on the right way to leverage the tool, the ATS system we use, how to be clean about what we’re capturing from every step of the candidate’s experience and every step of the hiring process. And I think from an early stage that felt a little clunky and heavy but that’s something that we were comfortable with having be on the heavier side because we knew that data was gonna come back for us in a big way in the years to come. I also think that we invested heavily in hiring talent that punched above their weight for the role we initially hired them for. So I think about the Aminas and I think about the other manager we have on our team, they…

20:26 RS: Is that what you call them internally, the Aminas?

20:28 EZ: The Aminas. Yeah, exactly.

[laughter]

20:32 EZ: We also have other names for her that I won’t share.

[laughter]

20:34 RS: On a different podcast.

20:35 AM: Ones that I’m not aware of.

20:38 EZ: I think we had the space to invest heavily in leadership that would help us grow to the next level, so we spent a little bit more money to get that into play.

20:47 AM: Did we? [20:48] ____ No I’m just kidding.

20:49 EZ: We did. We spent so much money.

[laughter]

20:51 RS: Amina’s like [20:52] ____ “Could’ve spend more.”

[laughter]

20:53 EZ: Yeah. She’s like, still not happy. The data infrastructure for lack of a better term, working for Segment is something that we feel may be clunky today, but will serve us tomorrow, where we don’t put a lot of red tape yet is, we still let the recruiters take their individual approach with partnering with each hiring manager, we have a guideline for it that make sure we get what we need. The hiring manager puts the right pieces into play, the job description’s clean, but they can kind of navigate the way they wanna work with that individual in a way that makes sense for them. And I think we’ve seen a lot of success with that because we’ve had different flavors of recruiters come through and drive processes that another one may not be able to do in the same way.

21:34 RS: Right.

21:34 EZ: Does that make sense?

21:35 RS: Yeah, yeah, definitely.

21:37 EZ: What would you say to this?

21:39 AM: I mean, I agree with that. I would also say the finance piece that was a process that we put into place that felt really clunky at first because everyone was like “We have to go through your finance, we have to get approvals, we have to get rec IDs”, this was a huge change that we didn’t have a Segment before. But now that we have it, now that it’s a much clearer path, it’s setting us up for success as we continue to grow and scale the recruiting team as well as the company as a whole. We need to make sure that we’re keeping track of where are our hires going, how are we thinking about that? Is the recruiting team focusing on the right roles? That was one of the things that we realized now that we have rec IDs in place, now that we’re lock step in finance that gives us room to be able to tell a story to our hiring managers to tell a story to our executives “Hey this is what we’re focusing on, and is this in line with your business? Is this in line in terms of where you’re spending your money as well?”

22:27 RS: Right, so just again, aligning with hiring managers, being like “is this really top priority for you before we put a sourcer on this, before we step on the gas. Is this really your top of mind role?”

22:38 AM: I think it also pushes… And correct me if I’m wrong Emily, it pushes executives to think about things too. They’re like, “Okay, this is where my budget is coming from, this is what I’m spending my budget on, is this the actual role that I wanna be focusing on right now? Or does it make sense to do it later in the year, and actually switch it for something else?” So, they’re starting to think about their orgs a little bit differently because of that as well.

22:58 RS: Got it. I’d love to hear about your talent team OKRs. And in particular, are they just for the talent team, or do they have a tie into the rest of the business? ’cause I feel like that’s a delicate balance, too. It’s like this is supposed to serve high-level business needs, but then you also have to tie it to everyone on your team. And how is their individual priorities going to tie to these bigger things that executives kinda hammer down, what’s your experience been with setting that?

23:26 EZ: I think it’s one of the pieces that in practice can feel really clunky and that it feels like it takes a lot of time to write these OKRs that directly tie back to what the business is ultimately trying to do, which feels very non-recruiting.

23:39 RS: Right.

23:40 EZ: I do think though after a year and a half of putting them into practice it’s been a really positive experience. I will tell you what our OKRs are, but I think the more important piece is we now have a story to say, “Okay, executive team rest of the company greater organization, this is what we’re gonna be focusing on for the year, because you’ve deemed these things most important to the business”, and so as we slow down and think, “How does recruiting play into X, Y and Z, we can justify our time being spent on these really important impactful, meaningful projects and things. There will always be a hit hiring goals, that’s the…

24:12 RS: Right.

24:14 EZ: Brunt of what we do. The biggest piece of our role, but having them tie to the larger business goals has been really, really key in explaining why we’re spending our time on what we’re spending our time on. So ours range from hitting hiring goals to building in a culture interview that aligns with our values and supports diverse talent or the acquisition of diverse talent. We talk about building a branding strategy that spans not just domestically, but also to all of our international markets. We talk about some of our stretch projects which there are variety of things that we do that are very outside of recruiting, but eventually tie back to the success of bringing talent into the org, and so we’ve kind of aligned them with our larger company goals and it tells a story of how we’re gonna be spending the majority of our time.

25:01 RS: Got it. Amina, how are the OKRs working out for you?

25:06 AM: [chuckle] It’s been a learning experience. I’ve been exposed to OKRs before, but never in-depth, the way I’ve been doing them at Segment, so learning how to write them, learning how to think about them has been really helpful. One of the OKRs that I worked on in the last six months was building how to hire a manager at Segment, and we realized that there was a need, as we started to scale our business we were going to be hiring more managers, some of them would be internal movements, as well as external candidates. And what we realized was a lot of the interviews that we were doing for managers right now, was just focusing on the functional roles, but not on people management.

25:41 AM: And when you’re a manager, a lot of your role is going to be managing the people on your team and making sure you’re developing them, you’re coaching them, you’re giving them feedback, you’re thinking about goal setting. And we didn’t have anything like that, so that was one of the OKRs that I worked on that ties back into recruiting, ties back into the business as a whole because as we scale our business, as we think about our business, hiring the right people to manage all the individual contributors and get them to a place where they’re successful and where they’re achieving all of the goals that we have… That one was not good. Where they’re successful is really important.

26:12 RS: Got it, okay. Well I feel rather good about this. [chuckle] I would love to ask you more about OKRs, but I feel like we are creeping up on optimal podcast length here.

26:23 EZ: What is optimal podcast length?

26:24 RS: Like the length of the average American commute.

26:27 AM: Like 30 minutes or 45.

26:29 RS: 30 or 40 minutes.

26:29 EZ: Like an hour and 20.

26:31 RS: Well, yeah in Los Angeles. Yeah, like 30. I don’t know, I always say that optimal podcast length and I think you’re the first person to call me out on it, but…

26:39 EZ: Sorry.

26:40 RS: It’s okay. Yeah, like 30 to 40 minutes.

26:43 EZ: For what it’s worth, that commute is an hour and 10, so…

26:43 AM: You gotta [26:44] ____.

26:45 RS: Oh goodness. Where you coming from?

26:46 EZ: The new Napa. Livermore, California.

[laughter]

26:50 AM: That’s how Emily’s trying to sell it to everybody.

26:51 RS: You thought I was gonna go, “oh Livermore.”

[laughter]

26:54 EZ: One day you will. And then you’ll think back to “I’ve heard that phrase before”, and it’ll be me ’cause I’ve coined it.

27:00 RS: Livermore, the new Napa.

27:01 EZ: And you’re hearing it here first, folks.

27:02 RS: That’s so funny. Well, as we creep upon maybe optimal podcast length no one’s really sure, I would just at this point say, Thank you so much, both of you for joining us. Amina “Value-Add” Moinuddin, and Head of recruiting, Emily Zahuta, you two have been an absolute blast. And really fun to listen to. So thank you so much for being here.

27:22 EZ: Thank you.

27:23 AM: Thank you.

27:23 EZ: Loved it.

27:24 RS: And all of you out there in Podcast Land, thank you so much for tuning in one more time. Ivan Rob Stevenson, you’ve all been amazing, wonderful, beautiful, recruiting darlings. Have a spectacular week. And happy hunting.

27:37 EZ: I love that you end with happy hunting.

27:39 RS: Happy hunting.

27:39 EZ: It’s always my favourite.

27:40 RS: Get out there and hunt that talent.

27:41 AM: That’s true.

27:42 RS: Happily.

27:43 EZ: I feel like I was a little struggly on this one.

27:45 RS: No, it was fine. It was good. Yeah it was good.

27:46 AM: No, you were great.

27:47 EZ: You think you got… You really thing you got…

27:49 RS: Yeah.

27:49 EZ: Okay. You’d tell me if you didn’t?

27:51 RS: Yeah. If I didn’t, what I would do is I’d email you and today’s going to be like “My computer crashed, I didn’t get the… ”

[laughter]

27:58 EZ: Okay, I’ll watch for that message.

28:00 AM: No you were really good though.

28:01 EZ: I feel like, it’s so easy to just…