Justin McKenna

LIVE in San Francisco with Emil Yeargin, Justin McKenna

Gusto's VP of TA and Dropbox's Head of Global Commercial Recruiting
Emil Yeargin and Justin McKenna

Talk Talent To Me travels to the Shelton Theatre in San Francisco, CA for a LIVE recording with Gusto’s VP of TA, Emil Yeargin, and Dropbox’s Head of Global Commercial Recruiting, Justin McKenna. The panel discusses how to resource large talent teams, maintain the human touch while automating processes, and how to make sure the Talent team has a seat at the table when big decisions are being made.

Episode Transcript

Rob Stevenson 0:05
Welcome to talk down to me, a podcast featuring the most elite talent leaders on the frontlines of modern recruitment.

Speaker 2 0:12
We actually want to understand the themes of someone’s life, we want to understand how they make decisions where they’re willing to take risks and what it looks like when they

Rob Stevenson 0:21
fail, no holds barred completely off the cuff interviews with directors of recruitment VPs of global talent, CHR rows, and everyone in between.

Speaker 3 0:31
Once I went through the classes and the trainings and got the certifications through diversity and inclusion, I still felt like something was missing.

Speaker 4 0:39
Talent Acquisition. It’s a fantastic career, you are trusted by the organization. You get to work with the C suite and the security at the front desk and everybody in between and everybody knows you.

Rob Stevenson 0:52
I’m your host, Rob Stevenson, and you’re about to hear the best in the biz. talk down to me. Hello, all of you magnificent recruiters out there in podcast land. It’s me, Bobby here again at the outset of another incident classic f of t TTM. And we have a very special episode today with the VP of talent over at gusto. Emile Juergen so special in fact that immediately after we finished recording it, I knew I had to hear more from a meal. So I asked him to be the featured guest for the San Francisco edition of the top talent to me roadshow. And he obliged. So I just wanted to chime in here at the beginning of the episode, to let you know that if you like what Emil has to say, if you want to hear more from him, meet him, ask him your own questions, you have the opportunity to do so next week in San Francisco, the evening of June 8. There are still some seats available for the show as well as the shows in New York and London. Completely free. Just have to follow the registration links in the episode description. Come on out. We’ll be great to see you just wanted to let you all know this episode is the inspiration for our live San Francisco show. That’s all I wanted to share. Let’s get on this episode, shall we? Why don’t you give a warm TTM Welcome to gussto VP of talent. Emile Juergen. Emile, welcome to the podcast. How are you today?

Emil Yeargin 2:15
I’m doing splendidly Rob. It’s so good to be here. Big fan of the show. So definitely jumped on the opportunity to chat about recruiting.

Rob Stevenson 2:22
Yeah, I’m so pleased you’re here. And just for the folks at home who can’t see you. You ever so effectively put on your glasses right as I introduced you as is if you were to say like Alright, now let’s get serious. Let’s get smart here. There was some goofiness before we hit the button, but I’m glad you’re taking this seriously now.

Speaker 5 2:39
It’s game time. You know, I want to put on my my gametime attire to match the occasion. Yeah, yeah,

Rob Stevenson 2:44
definitely suits you. Glad to have you here. I mean, oh, gosh, there’s so much we can go into how have you been these last couple of weeks since we first chatted, how’s the state of things over there at gussto

Speaker 5 2:54
Things are? Well, we just wrapped up our fiscal year. So we’re in the process of kicking off fy 23. So I always find this time to be the most interesting because it feels as if you’re doing three jobs, right, you’re, you’re wrapping up the previous year, you’re trying to do your day job in the present. And then you’re also trying to project what’s to come in the following or the upcoming year. So just a lot of wrap up work a lot of thinking about what the future holds for us a lot of communicating both internally. And externally. They really set the stage for what’s going to be a huge year for gusto. But this is where I find you can have the most fun, right? This is where you can really take the ceilings off what’s possible and really put together a plan, whether it’s through capacity planning, whether it’s through looking at engagement scores, and trying to find ways where you can bring your team closer together, whether it’s we don’t have any travel mandates right now. So how can we think about connectivity? And if we want to do some things in person, or how do we think about what the structure of our engagements gonna look like moving forward, right. It’s just limitless possibilities. And that’s why I think this is such a very intriguing, interesting time for us. How do

Rob Stevenson 3:53
you come to those meetings around the end of the year, your sort of equal parts, looking back and then planning for the future? Like you say, you get to have the world’s kind of your oyster, you can sort of report on what went well ask for more budget, I don’t know, figure out how the team is going to grow and change. How do you personally prepare for those meetings and strategize so that your talent team can get what it needs out of the deal.

Speaker 5 4:15
Just for additional context, I’m coming up with my one year at gusto. So one of the things that I really like to do as we end the year is really just reflect back on the objectives that we put in place to begin the year. And how do we progress against those right. And I think in a world in which we’ve gone through a lot in the last couple of years with COVID, and not necessarily being able to resort to the old tricks of the trade in order to build community and continuity within the team. Just building around objectives that we all have a stake in is a really, really good way to bring the team together despite them working on different things, despite them maybe having different routes to getting to that endpoint, really centering the work that you’re doing around shared and collective goals. So really making it so that everything that we do always ties back to these couple of things, and making sure that there’s active updates and progress check So at the end of the year, it’s generally a celebration. gussto had a great year, we grew the company, roughly 80%, in terms of headcount. So there was a lot of work, a lot of engagement, a lot of interviewing, a lot of hiring that was done throughout the year. But the thing that I’m most proud of, as I look back over the last, you know, nine to 12 months is just how we’ve up leveled the team in so many different ways. We’ve hired a bunch of people internally, we’ve up leveled a lot of our processes. And we’ve really reimagined what crooning can be within the confines of the company. Right? So as I’m thinking about how to approach these meetings, and how to approach these years, I just come in with a lot of excitement. Because this is authentic, we’ve done so much. And it’s been such a great year. And it’s, you know, how do we celebrate what happened? How do we also create excitement around what’s to come? I think this is where you have an opportunity to really set the stage for what could be another great year of hiring, but more importantly, on the individual level, right? It’s how are you going to be impactful and really driving this company to its optimal greatness. So that’s what I’m trying to do right now. I’m trying to shake as many hands, kiss as many babies as possible, really advocate and evangelize on behalf of the team, and make it so everyone knows that, hey, you know, this recruiting team, just as in someone or are in a group of people who put butts in seats, were a true strategic partner to the business, we’re helping fuel the growth of this company. I mean, all the business objectives that we’ve been able to attain are as a result of our ability to hire people who can help us get there, right. So the more I think you can tie impact to business objectives, the better. And that’s what I’m currently trying to do.

Rob Stevenson 6:28
So what is the ideal outcome for you have all the handshaking baby kissing? to somebody? Are there specific things you want specific goals for the campaigns you’re hoping to get executive sign on for? Or when you say you’re trying to reinvent what recruiting means to the company? What does that look like for you?

Speaker 5 6:46
Yeah, you actually take a step back in recognize that shaking hands and kissing babies in a world where we just experienced a pandemic may not be the right phrase to leverage anymore, but I’ll keep it for now. So I think like on this roadshow, if so what I’m trying to do is just kind of really highlight some of the strategic investments that we made as a team, I think, as a new leader, it’s a great opportunity to hit the reset button and take a couple of swings at the plate. Right? I think when you’re brought into a new role, the ultimate outcome should be to bring your experience, bring your knowledge base and apply it to the company that you’re going into. And it’s not always going to fit what was being done before, it might be a little bit different. It might be starkly different. So as I’m having these roadshows, it’s about helping folks understand where we were versus where we are today, based on some of the investments that we made, and how do we double down in these certain areas. So I think with a company of gusto size, you know, one of the conversations that we’ve recently engaged in is, you know, is this the opportunity for us to start investing in strategic sourcing, and really building out a team that can help improve top of funnel velocity versus what we’ve been historically, which is just a team of full cycle recruiters, right. And we did some marginal investment in it over the course of last year, we saw a lot of ROI on that. So as we go into FY 23, this is going to be another key area of investment for us as we look to really drive top of funnel velocity, but then also thinking about some of the qualitative aspects that a sourcing team can bring, from a representation standpoint, from a talent mapping standpoint, from just a general movement of people standpoint, right really being a little bit more strategic in how we approach some of the searches that we’re going to run. So that’s like one component of it. I think the other piece of it too, is I think this is a great opportunity to really sit down with leaders and figure out where they’re trying to go with their business again, you know, in the same vein that I look at this as an opportunity to hit the reset button, and really reimagine what my team can do. I know a lot of leaders are doing the same thing, right? It’s a very reflective time. So really getting in front of these leaders. And in addition to shaking the hands and kissing the babies, it’s really having those strategic conversations around, you know, what is the next 612 1824 months look like? And how can recruiting play a pivotal part in helping you check those boxes. And I think over the course of time, when I’m hopeful for as I continue to collect my bearings, like gusto is, how do we really sit down and come up with a key set of metrics that are going to really help us understand or health in a whole different light? Right? And how do we use those metrics to help better inform how we can make the right hires for the company? So, you know, if I’m thinking about an organization being top heavy, it’s how do we infuse this team with more innovation, right and more folks who might be a little bit more junior in their careers, but can bring an execution mindset that this team needs? If it’s the inverse, it’s how do we strategically go out and fill some of the skill gaps around seniority that you’re experiencing? So that as you’re thinking about the makeup of your team, it’s a little bit more balanced and you have career progression opportunities for the entirety of the team is, are we seeing high attrition rates on specific teams or organizations? It’s, How do we redefine our pitch to make it so that from cradle to grave or from soup to nuts, we’re really thinking about how we’re positioning the role and position the team and position the company in a way that is not going to mislead or not going to lend itself to any frustration or disappointment was the beta roll. So I just think that recruiting or invite as we’re affectionately called within gusto can play such more of a major part in terms of strategic thinking company building, and really having a seat at the table when it comes to how this company wants to grow over the course of time. And I’m just trying to do my best to advocate on behalf of my team and position us in a way where these leaders are comfortable having those conversations with us. You gave

Rob Stevenson 10:16
the example of a top heavy organization, can we balance this out with more executors? That’s just one area, I’m sure you’re giving feedback. It’s a little more strategic, though, then just meeting with the VP of whatever and being like, what are your goals? What are the hires you want? Okay, here’s how many I can get you blah, blah, there’s more just general organizational thought being put into that feedback you’re giving? Do you find that other leaders in the org are generally receptive to that kind of feedback?

Speaker 5 10:44
I do, right, but also think it’s about presentation. These are very important topics that folks are very impactful topics to folks. Right. So I think it’s one thing to go into a meeting with an intuition that like, Hey, I think we should be doing this based on this dream that I had last night, right, versus, you know, really looking at the data. And like I said earlier, as we’re thinking about ways that we can be more strategic and partner at a higher level with the business, if we have these predefined talent maps with predefined skill gap deltas, that we can help close through the hiring of these folks, right, I think we can go on to these conversations with a little bit more ammunition to really get the outcomes that we want to see, in my earlier career, I would go into some of these meetings and thinking that, Oh, I’m in the weeds, I’m in the trenches. I know exactly what to do. I know exactly what to say. And then I’d go in there, and it’s like, Hey, I think you need to do this just based on what I know to be true. And they’d be like, okay, like, where’s the data? Where’s the map of the talent? And where are they located? And what companies? Are they working at? What school is that they go to? And what’s the average tenure at a company depending on, you know, the seniority level of these folks, right? And wouldn’t have that information, right. So you know, sometimes you got to learn a hard lesson. And when it comes to having these conversations at the strategic level with the senior leaders, right, it’s not enough just to know it, you got to be able to articulate it in a way that’s really going to resonate with how they think and how they think about hiring the talent or the attraction of talent, right? So really making it so that you have an understanding of these leaders, understanding where they want to go strategically. And then using that as an opportunity to kind of structure the framing of the positioning of the information that you want to present. I think it’s something that all effective Talib is having their back pockets, it’s meeting people where they are right and understanding what are the things and the key drivers are going to engage them at the highest levels, and then making it so that the information that you have to provide or the data that you want to present is going to be in alignment with that and you can get the outcomes that you’re looking for,

Rob Stevenson 12:34
not to reduce it down to this, but it feels as straightforward as just knowing your org inside it out. I’m imagining you putting up an org chart, for example, and just reflecting that back to the other leader and saying, Is this accurate? Okay, this is what it looks like. What I’m seeing here is that it’s top heavy to continue that example. And you would only have that perspective, if you’d studied this, you know, if you just kind of live and breathe, who are these people in our company? And what are they all bringing uniquely to the table? I feel like being able to be strategic to the business starts there. Is that fair to say?

Emil Yeargin 13:09
Yeah, I would say that’s one component of it, right? Like in its most simplistic form, right? It’s just the org chart. And what does this look like, based on level of tenure that I can see in the system? I think where you can double click and get even below the surface level is when you start to understand not only what their titles are, and the level of seniority that they bring to the table, but what are the skill sets that these folks are bringing to the table, right? And then how do you pair those things together? Right? You have seniority in these areas, but you don’t have maybe in coverage, or you just don’t have any skill set in this area. Right? So how do we supplement and balance the team in a way where yes, you know, the years of experience, it’s gonna be a little bit more balanced. But there’s also an opportunity for us to go out and find innovative skill set that can balance this 14 in person on the team and create a balance in a way that is going to allow for your team to have the context to be successful, but also going to have the skill set to innovate in a way that might create more efficiencies for the team, that Oregon and company. But when I think about like understanding the org, right, I think it’s your org chart is the first spot that you want to start but it’s, as you double click into the org, it’s really understanding what this org is trying to accomplish, whether or not they have the skill set to be able to get to where they want to be in an efficient way. Right. And they’re presenting some opportunities or some viewpoints on how we can help close that gap. And create a situation where they can have that team that can truly maximize opportunity that’s in front of them.

Rob Stevenson 14:27
That makes sense. It’s all part of the process. The middle, we kind of jumped in at the deep end here. And you’re on a roll. I didn’t want to cut you off. I want to make sure we get to know you a little bit because you’ve had such an interesting background. Would you mind sharing a bit about how you kind of came to this current role a little bit about the middle of it all and just your journey through tech in to this point in talent.

Speaker 5 14:46
I grew up in San Francisco born and raised all my schooling in San Francisco, which is really interesting because growing up I never understood it. Never saw myself in tech. It’s jarring to say it out loud sometimes given that where I’m with to school, it’s probably like a 10 minute bus ride from the Salesforce tower in San Francisco or where it’s located today. But the education just wasn’t there was still very much partition behind a big, big, big fence. And position is just you know, you have to be a math or science major in order to be able to get into some of these companies. And, you know, it wasn’t until the mid 20s, where like, most folks, what I’ve heard on this podcast kind of just fell into it, and fell in love with it and started off in agency really grinded my way up the ranks for a couple of years and hit a point where I just realized there was more to recruiting than placing people at third party banks and financial institutions and tech companies, right. I wanted to be a part of the companies, I wanted to be a part of the talent strategy, I wanted to be a company builder, right, not just someone who put butts in seats. So I took a swing and decided to go in house and went to Zenefits, where I spent some time there, which is serendipitous given it on my gusto and it was very much a competitor at the time. So this empathy that I have for small businesses has just been there since my first days of in house recruiting, which I think it’s helped certainly well in my current role and gusto. But going back afterwards, no offense, but the Okta was there for a couple of years, like tech recruiting and I had an amazing time there got a chance to partner with some amazing leaders really learned a lot. I think that’s really my formative stage when it comes to recruiting and really being in a position to work with senior leadership to think about expansion strategies going in to different countries and thinking a little bit more internationally about the processes that we wanted to leverage. And from there, take that to lift where again, had an opportunity to partner with a lot of great leaders, a lot of great people really learned a lot and kind of hit this stage of reflection during the pandemic, where I really wanted to be intentional with how I spent my time with how I spend my energy and really wanted to go to a place that would allow me to almost take a step back in terms of scale, and really ensure that, you know, as the company was going from A to B, that we were implementing the right processes, that recruiting had a proper seat at the table and could really hold the line when it came to things that were going to be detrimental to our long term success when it came to engaging in attracting people and gussto came around at the right time. And I remember wrapping up my phone call with them and just being so impressed and being so just engaged with the value proposition that they had to offer not only about the role, but just more importantly about the impact that the company was looking to make, and just the impact that it was driving with his existing customer base. And it just felt like a match made in heaven. So decided to make the jump to gusto and have been thrilled with the decision, we’ve been able to do some great work, we still have a long way to go. And we’re gonna shoot for the stars here and really trying to create a Nirvana state for recruiting, right. But I’ve always just enjoyed the process, I played sports growing up, really enjoyed the practice process. And I think we’re in that stage right now, where every day is a new challenge every day is a new set of opportunities. And I think what we’re trying to do now is just get our grasp on some of these challenges and some of the things that we can do to help improve the company and just really executing at the highest levels.

Rob Stevenson 18:05
You mentioned, you have a somewhat similar origin story, I talked to lots of folks who like you grounded out in the agency, when it became deliberative for you when you’d kind of decided I’m going to pursue this because I really love it not just because it’s the skill I happen to have accumulated over the last few years in my career is the job I can get. What was the tipping point for you, when you kind of realized that it was about more than just putting someone in a job? Where was that realization? What changed?

Speaker 5 18:30
For me personally, it was just the realization of the opportunity that was being presented to me, right. And going back to my story about growing up in San Francisco and not realizing that tech was an option. For me, it became clear that this can be not only just a profession, but it can be a long lasting career. One of the things that truly excites me about recruiting is this, in the proliferation of it, or just the expansion of visibility into the role is the fact that I think the next generation, unlike us are going to grow up wanting to be recruited, I think there are going to be nine year olds in their third grade classes saying, hey, I want to grow up to be a recruiter because my mom or my uncle or my aunt or just someone else’s recruiter, and it seems like a really, really cool opportunity to be at the intersection of company building, but then also helping people find that true alignment between purpose and values and the work that they want to do. So as I think about my opportunity, and why I continue to just love recruiting, I think it’s because it gave me an opportunity that I could have never imagined when I was growing up but then be recognized that a lot of us in this industry today are really setting the tone for a prosperous profession for the next generation and I’m hopeful continues to grow that continues to evolve and most importantly continue to diversify and brings in new innovations and just new trains of thought and perspectives because again, I don’t want younger me to be in the same position and 20 years right I want younger me to have opportunity to understand that, Hey, you, too can work at the biggest tech companies in the world, right? And I think we’re on the precipice of that, which makes me really, really excited.

Rob Stevenson 20:08
What is it about the job that you think will appeal to that generation who from a much earlier stage will say, Yes, I want to do this deliberately, as opposed to the story. That’s all too common that I hear, which is, oh, I kind of fell into it by accident. But now I like it, what’s going to be the change? Why do you think kids will raise their hand,

Speaker 5 20:25
what we’re discovering now, right, and we see it in a lot of different respects, the role of talent acquisition has evolved immensely. Over the course of time, I think we’re seeing chief recruiting officer type titles, Chief talent officer type titles coming about, because I think companies are realizing the value of people, right. It’s not just products driving revenues, it’s the people building the products, building the culture within these companies that are driving revenue. So I think there’s going to be a much bigger spotlight on the talent organization, and there’s ever been in the past. And with that being said, I think if I were to put my 12 year old hat on, right, I would imagine that, you know, whatever I wanted to do, I wanted to drive impact, the new generation is so much more tech savvy than we were growing up, these companies aren’t foreign to them, right? They interact with these companies in these brands every day, in a way that we didn’t, because I didn’t grow up with an iPad, right? I didn’t grow up with 200 channels and YouTube to sift through, right. So as I’m thinking about the interactions with these brands, and with these companies, and how they think they can make a difference, or how they can drive more productive outcomes, one of the biggest ways you can do that is through hiring people, right and hiring the right people, and helping create lenses where you can have representation, and just different backgrounds and non traditional ways of getting from point A to point B, not be a reason for not employing someone. So I think the function of recruiting is really proving that it can implement wholesale change within a company. And I think the more and more people get an opportunity to see that the more and more our kids and just the younger generation will get a chance to see that I think it’s going to be a more desirable job than ever.

Rob Stevenson 22:00
It’s such a good point that the way children are interacting with technology at a younger age, and there’s this like dystopian view of it in a way, but I kind of don’t go in on that. I like oh, there’s this kid in the restaurant. He was on the iPad the whole time. And it’s like, yeah, but like, what was he doing on the iPad? You know, was he playing Bejeweled? Or was he on Roblox like coding a new game? You know, you don’t know. With the example of Roblox the difference between consumer brand and employer brand has become far less deviated in the last, you know, 10 plus years to right, there was a time where liking Coke was not a hop, skip and a jump from I should have worked for Coke. Now. It’s, it’s deliberately that way, like Coke is thinking, how do we engage with people who will love our product and most and try and get them to work here? In the same way, I spoke to someone from Comcast, who they’re interviewing people for their company, and they’re like, look, we have to worry about our consumer brand. Because if they have a bad interview experience, then maybe they have a bad taste in their mouth. And they switch to Verizon, you know. So there’s this general conflation that’s happening. And the people using these products will benefit from that. This like ability to be able to pursue a career with a product that they have a lot of familiarity with, based on the history of their education really starting at a young age. It’s easy to cry foul at that. It’s easy to say this is like the end of days and Rise of the Machines, but it neglects all of the ways that kids can be upwardly mobile, a kid like you grew up in San Francisco, if you’d had a Roblox account, you may have been vacuumed into tech faster. And you may have gotten to this point, even sooner.

Speaker 5 23:31
Yeah, I mean, I just think General exposure is just much different than it was I intend not to sound like back in my day kind of person. But it’s just different. The line between like you said consumer and employer brand is relatively thin at this point. And I’ve talked to folks who don’t necessarily know what they want to do, but they know where they want to work, right, which I think speaks volumes to how the game is changing, where it’s, I think folks are going to look for entry points to get into these companies anywhere that they can. And I don’t think that was necessarily the mindset that I had growing up. And maybe that was just isolated for me maybe just isolated for the community that I was in. But I just don’t think that mindset was very prevalent. And I’m hopeful that that changes, right? Because I think there are so many different skill sets that these large companies look for that the small companies look for, that span the gamut from Creative Writing, to artistry to coding, right? And I’m hopeful that all the kids understand that. Take your talent and monetize it, because you can’t write it companies will hire you for it. It doesn’t need to necessarily be confined to just math and science. It’s like it was when I was coming up.

Rob Stevenson 24:32
It is such a common thing to hear the grizzled HR tech influencer veteran and there are a lot of them say things like listen all these newfangled new tech tools, it’s all doing the same thing. It’s putting warm butts in cold seats, and I see what they’re getting at but I tend to side with you that it has changed a lot in the last however many years. Could you speak on that a little more how you think the profession has evolved in the last 10 or so. years.

Speaker 5 25:00
Yeah, I mean, the profession has evolved because company has evolved, right? So I mean, you kind of have to start there. It’s just all different. And as I think about my role and what I attend for it to be, it’s to be a strategic adviser. I think if you’re going in with the mindset that we’re just putting a warm button cold seats, then that’s what you’ll get out of it right, you’ll get a perception of your team of yourself that you just put more butts in cold seats, right. But I think for me, when it’s about even if it’s not the case, right, it’s trying to chart a path where that’s not going to be the MO for the recruiting team, right? I want the MO for the recruiting team to be a strategic advisor that we want to loop in all conversations as it pertains to growth, right? Not just headcount growth, or revenue, growth, cultural growth, any type of growth, right, I want my team to be in that room, being able to give their takes and their opinions on how we can do it most effectively. So I think, again, if you go in with that mindset, that’s exactly what you’re gonna get, right. But also do think, again, right? The importance of talent. And the ways that companies are operating in order to make it most easy for talent to be attractive or to be retained, is very obvious, you can see it based on some of the work from home policies that you’re seeing based on the availability of remote opportunities for folks that weren’t available prior to the pandemic, the mindset of the populace has shifted, right. And I think companies are trying their best to keep up with it. And then it’s one of the reasons why I’m so happy to work at gussto, where it’s a company that really puts the decision making into the employees hands, right? It’s, hey, do you want to be someone who goes to the office every day, hey, do you want to be someone who comes in a couple times, so we can you want to be remote, so long as you can do your best work, we want to enable you to do that, wherever that might be. And I think the companies that are able to create those mutually beneficial arrangements with their employees are simply companies that reap the benefits of not only getting the best work from their existing employees, right, but attracting those employees who are looking for those situations. So again, it’s a much different world than it was. And not to say that they’re not still some concepts of that, I think at the end of the day, you know, we are tasked with hiring people, right, and I have a hard goal that I’m striving towards, and then I’m pushing my teams towards. But the way that we get there, the methodology that we leverage to get there, the philosophy that we want to put forth in terms of getting there is much different from that. And I think it’s going to make it for all the better. Because I want my people to be connected to their work, I want to be connected to my work, right. And if I am not, then that’s where I start to have wandering eyes is the thing that all talent leaders are concerned about right now. So to me, it’s drive impact drive high level philosophy, and drive a culture where you can tie business objectives to your work, so that you feel attached to it.

Rob Stevenson 27:42
That makes all the sense of the world. To me, Emile, we are creeping up on optimal podcast length here. But before I let you go, I want to put it on you to bring this episode home. For the folks listening to this who have kind of heard about your journey, grinding it out to the agency, now you’re elevated to running the show for a really awesome tech company. What advice would you give for people who want to replicate that sort of journey?

Speaker 5 28:04
Yeah, I would say trust your gut, it’s been a hell of a ride. I’ve enjoyed every step of the way, and trust your gut and be intentional. The piece of advice that I give any and everyone that I talked to is, don’t just think about your next job, think about the job that you want to steps away, right, and use that as kind of your Northstar in terms of making decisions. In between that step. I’ve seen a lot of folks who will take an opportunity that’s in complete contrast to where they want to be ultimately because they think the grass is greener. But I think we all have an obligation to ourselves really be strategic in how we want to position our careers, right. And especially if you’re a recruiter, right, recruiting is all about narrative. It’s all about being able to tell a holistic, cohesive story, as you’re thinking about your career, thinking about it as a recruiting story, right? It’s, you know, how did I get from point A to point B? And how do I get from point B to point C? And how did point A and point B, help input, the great things are gonna help me be successful in point C, and I think, if folks are able to do that, in an intentional way, I think they’ll see a lot better outcomes and get to where they want to go a lot quicker. And then lastly, have fun. I think recruiting is such a great profession. It’s opened up so many opportunities for me and my family. I’m just immensely indebted to the profession in itself. But don’t take it overly seriously. It’s a fun profession where we get a chance to build companies with some of the best and the brightest, where we get to sit side by side with some of the most social best people on earth and really take it all in. We’re at the precipice of a huge change in terms of how this profession is viewed. And I’m truly excited for it.

Rob Stevenson 29:35
Me. Oh, that’s fantastic advice. Thank you so much for being with me today. I’ve loved chatting with you.

Speaker 5 29:40
Say, Rob. Always a pleasure. Let me know if I can help you in any other way. But thanks again for the opportunity. This is truly a pleasure.

Rob Stevenson 29:49
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