Kyndryl CHRO Maryjo Charbonnier

Maryjo CharbonnierCHRO

Maryjo isn’t afraid of a challenge. Her passion for change-making has led her to her current position as the Chief HR Officer at Kyndryl, an IBM spin-off which is now the world’s largest startup with over 90,000 employees and $19 billion in revenue. In this episode, Maryjo and I do a deep dive into what it takes to cultivate and maintain a thriving company culture.

Episode Transcript

Rob Stevenson 0:05
Welcome to talk down to me, a podcast featuring the most elite talent leaders on the front lines of modern recruitment. We actually want to understand the themes of someone’s life. We want to understand how they make decisions where they’re willing to take risks and what it looks like when they fail. No holds barred completely off the cuff interviews with directors of recruitment VPs of global talent, CHR rows, and everyone in between. Once I went through the classes and the trainings and got the certifications through diversity and inclusion, I still felt like something was missing. Talent Acquisition. It’s a fantastic career, you are trusted by the organization. You get to work with the C suite and the security at the front desk and everybody in between and everybody knows you. I’m your host, Rob Stevenson, and you’re about to hear the best in the biz. talk down to me.

Rob Stevenson 0:58
Here on the podcast to talk down to me today is a woman with a bevy of experience in our space. She was the VP of HR over at Pepsi, she had additional roles as CHRO for Broadridge as well as Wolters Kluwer in the Netherlands. Now she is the Chief Human Resources Officer over at Kindle. Mary Jo sharpen. Yeah, welcome to the podcast. How the heck are you today?

Maryjo Charbonnier 1:22
I’m great. Thanks, Rob. And it’s great to be here with you. And I hope you’re feeling as great as I am today.

Rob Stevenson 1:27
I am and I’m feeling better by the moment because of your sunny disposition. Say, how was your weekend? We’re here on a Monday afternoon. What are things looking like over there at control for you?

Maryjo Charbonnier 1:38
I mean, Kyndryl is a really exciting place to be, if not all the time in a career, you get to be part of the world’s largest startup with 19 billion in revenue and 90,000 Kyndrls in over 60 countries around the world. So every day is a great and exciting day, Kyndryl.

Rob Stevenson 1:55
It does sound like an exciting time. I think they say that the first 18 billion is the hardest. So you’re in primary position here. But it’s a fascinating story. For those of you who don’t know, because Kyndryl kind of came across my radar. And I was like, How have I missed this company? And it’s because you’ve spun out of IBM recently, I guess I should let you tell the story a little bit, would you mind sharing from whence come with Kyndryl, and then maybe we can get into how you arrived there as well.

Maryjo Charbonnier 2:19
So we were originally part of a division of IBM, and we spun out about a year and a half ago as a public company. So it’s really exciting HR work to do a spin and have a chance to do everything new for the first time. And I know we’re going to talk about culture and culture has been a big part of that journey for us. So when spins happen, they are a chance to both do a big transformation on the business side, but also in HR. And I’m sure we’ll talk more about those two things as we go.

Rob Stevenson 2:53
When you spin out from a company as large and established as IBM probably a lot of the same people working at Kyndryl that worked at IBM. Is there a tendency or a risk for it to be like a stamp and printed version of the IBM culture? Or how did things kind of shift and change?

Maryjo Charbonnier 3:11
Yeah, so I think when you do a spin, this is my second one. Because when I took my first CAGR assignment Broadridge had just spun out of ADP. And I have a saying that I say about spins, which is you don’t get to pack your suitcase. When you do and you only get to unpack your suitcase. Your parent company is thoughtfully packing things for you along the way. And sometimes it’s all the things you’d pack for yourself. And sometimes it isn’t. And one of the things we knew we started serving employees and talking to employees about how they wanted that culture to change or not change even before the spin. So the research that went into both talking to employees, banana employees really talking to customers about how did they want to see Kyndryl show up differently to them to meet their needs. So we bought both the brand research work we were doing with customers and the employee research together, because one thing that was going to be really different as we became Kyndryl was we weren’t a product company. We’re the services division before. So we really in a services company, how people act and behave in front of the customer really is your brand. And that means you need to start thinking about that well in advance of a spin because you want to begin to change potentially behavior early on. So we surveyed employees things we heard, which was to myself and to Martin, our CEO and the senior team, keep the great commitment to diversity inclusion, keep the commitment to learning we could do without some of Alba legacy bureaucracy and process. We’d like to have a more empowerment. So those were some of the things that we heard then as we began to look at, well, what are we hearing for customers? Interestingly, some of the same things began to shape how we were going to talk about and think about, what about the culture we wanted? To change, and we really believe that culture manifests in three different ways, one behaviors, two systems. So if you think about your promotional system, your budgeting system, your strategic planning system, these are always the actual culture shows up. And then in symbols, think about who gets promoted, who gets the call at our office, how rewards get given out, these are things that have a lot of messages baked in them about the culture. So when you’re trying to change culture quickly, you’re really trying to change behavior, systems and symbols in combination as fast as you can, in the way that gets the desired outcome you want.

Rob Stevenson 5:38
What is the desired outcome?

Maryjo Charbonnier 5:40
Alright, so let’s start talking about we wanted to change behavior. That’s where we started. And so we worked with our senior team, we really start to codify what did we mean about how we wanted people to behave? And that’s now become what we call the Kyndryl Way. And I’m going to tell it to you because I think if you aren’t able to express your culture crisply, and you don’t know your culture, right, I want to think about cultures. I want to think about what’s a recruiter gonna say on the phone, what’s that one to two minute pitch, they give a candidate about why come work here. So Kyndra wig is about this. So we said, look, in terms of how we behave with one another, our customers and our communities. We want to be restless to continuously innovate and grow. We wanted to be empathetic, which meant to serve with trust and transparency. And we wanted to be devoted to shared success devoted to our customer success devoted to our employees success devoted to the success of our communities where we live and work. Second thing we want to do is change the way we organize, work and make decisions. And that meant trying to be fast, cultivate simplicity, everywhere, flat, developing diverse, empowered, inclusive teams, and focused focused on service because that’s what we do. So in HR we talked about, we’re focused on serving our Kyndryls so that they can better serve our customers. Okay, so that’s the Kyndryl away, pretty easy to repeat, read, it’s our color, restless, empathetic, devoted, flat, fast and focused.

Rob Stevenson 7:06
I love it. This is where a little bit of marketing intersects in the world of HR too, because you have this internal external deviation, a lot of what you rattled off there is really important for the employees to know for your recruiters to know, but they might not put it in such a way speaking with a candidate. Likewise, when I’m developing a podcast, there’s pages and pages of tone and listener persona ideas that will never ever see the light of day, unless, like right now if I’m showing you, of you behind the curtain, but my point is that there’s this interesting like, Okay, you have this big project of what you want the culture to look and sound like. And then there’s what it sounds like when you’re actually speaking to a candidate. So I’d love to know, if you were to listen into a phone screen, for example, and one of your recruiters and the candidate asked, What’s the culture kinjo like? And then they nail it, right? You listened to their one to two minute thing? And you’re like, exactly perfect, raise promotion, etc. What is it that they would say?

Rob Stevenson 9:21
I am really pleased to hear that culture discussion was such a big part of the executive off site, you said almost half the time, what do you think is the risk of not investing in culture to that level?

Maryjo Charbonnier 11:15
That’s funny, you should ask me that. I think my last CEO didn’t like to talk about culture much at all. And this one does this one, you know, I think it’s really important in the culture, I think the businesses, when you’re a spin, you really do need to reestablish culture. So I don’t think in a spin, you can not talk about it. Because you often have to change the trajectory of a business when you spin. And so fundamental to that becomes changing the way people are behaving and interacting with one another.

Rob Stevenson 11:46
It’s curious, Mary Jo, that this is your second time spinning out and focusing on culture, it didn’t strike me that this happens. So much. So when kyndryl found you, they must have been like, jackpot, we actually found someone who’s done this before.

Maryjo Charbonnier 11:59
I think was the other way around.

Rob Stevenson 12:01
Oh, you will even look for a company that was spinning.

Maryjo Charbonnier 8:05
I think they’d say those six things back is what I’d be hoping that they really talk about is that, look, it’s a culture where you feel the empathy, you feel the Spirit to be better than you were before in a way that we described as wrestlers, and that there’s a real commitment to really shared success. And then I hope they talk about that we’re getting better at being fast and flat. We know that’s our aspirational one from our history. So I would expect them to be honest, and say, the organization’s aware of that there’s probably maybe more process or bureaucracies and you used to be we’re working on it, and then talk about the commitment to really serve our customers and bring differentiated service into the marketplace. So that’s what I’d hope they read off the poster we gave them so to speak, not that anyone has posters anymore. And let’s talk them maybe a little bit about, hey, we started focusing on behavior. So I gave you the summary version of it. But for each of those sort of what we call key principles of the Kyndryl way, we spelled out subsequent, you know, anchor behaviors, things that you use, like in a 360. And we did them for executives, managers, and individual contributors, because we know some of those behaviors look different depending on where in your career journey you are, we’d launched them to all 800 executives. I think one of the surprising things we did is on our first executive sort of off site, which actually happened in three different places all at once and two virtual events. We almost spent half the time talking about the culture change and what leaders needed to do to really address the culture change to accelerate the business change. And I think that surprised everybody because that hadn’t been something that had been done before. We gave leaders a toolkit on how to roll it out and bring it back to their own teams and began the cascade. Our CEO and our all of us as leaders across the organization, talked about it in our town halls and open mics. And then we rolled leadership badges. So if you follow any Kyndryl on something like LinkedIn, they probably posts from time to time I got a leadership badge and being empathetic or devoted to shared success. So we tried to introduce it in fun ways. We featured a leadership behavior of the month for like six months straight with our comms team played an incredible role in that. And then we did a survey, we actually sort of were measuring engagement, but we asked key questions in addition to the engagement questions that were sort of mapped to those six principles, right, so that we could establish a baseline for culture. And so we’ve gotten our first full survey results back. And one of the questions we asked, in addition to those kind of six core principle ones, where we were looking to measure change was, I believe my manager behaves consistent with the Kyndryl way. And 88% of kin drills around the world said, yes, they answered favorably to that. So that was my proof point, and that we got the message communicated, and so that people could actually say, Oh, I know what the way is, and my managers behaving consistently with it.

Maryjo Charbonnier 12:04
Yeah, you know, when I look back on my HR career, I have always loved the transformation assignments. And sort of the bigger, the more difficult whether they’ve been turned around spins, huge functional transformations, business transformations. I mean, this is what I’ve loved in my HR career. And I always tell people in an HR career, it’s important, if you really want to accelerate your career to seek the heat, go where the big problems are, and go there, because those are going to be where everyone has eyes on it. And if you can make the difference, it can really help accelerate your career path. And I always tell people, you know, when I look back on my HR career, probably 75% of the roles I held, didn’t exist on an org chart at the time to ask for them interesting. And so even when my boss would come in HR and say, you know, what succession planning time? What would you aspire to be? And I would say, Okay, well, I know you have to put my name in some box. So just say I want to be a CHRO, for the box I really want isn’t even on the page. So I want you to make a little box that says the job that doesn’t yet exist, where the complexity is, and put my name in that box. So when they called me originally about the Kyndryl assignment as a spin, a business transformation, a big functional transformation and a cultural transformation, signed me up. That’s just just my kind of great HR work that I love.

Rob Stevenson 13:24
So is that what was so attractive about it was the opportunity, you knew that this is a big project that has to be gotten correct, maybe a little outside your comfort zone? What made you feel like yes, this is all of it.

Maryjo Charbonnier 13:34
I love when the business transformation sits at the heart of a people transformation. Right. And that’s where it’s such a great place for the HR world to make a really strategic impact when you’ve got the complexity of a business transformation that’s really centered around a big culture or people transformation. I think those are the most interesting assignments.

Rob Stevenson 13:58
Yeah, that’s a connect there that the business transformation is sort of reliant on nailing this people transformation, because there had to be some kind of change. It couldn’t just be diet, IBM, it can be like IBM lights, this was going to be a host unto itself. Was that sort of the understanding from the beginning that, look, we’re going to be our own thing. We’re going to borrow some things that worked at IBM, and then we’re going to fix the rest.

Maryjo Charbonnier 14:21
Yeah, I mean, I think in a spin, you’re always building on legacy, and usually often, in many ways, a great one. But you know, sort of what got you there won’t get you to the next chapter of growth or customer intimacy and success. So I would say in that case, we’re going to keep the things and employees told us that they wanted some things to stay packed in our suitcase. And I think we’ve tried to be really explicit about honoring those things.

Rob Stevenson 14:47
Yeah, that makes sense. I want to ask you maybe a more elementary question about culture, which I should have asked earlier, but I got a little carried away speaking with you, Mary Jo, because you’re very fun to chat with. I’m curious when it comes to come culture, if you think it is something that is deliberate, that it is prescribed, or is it something organic that kind of emerges from the consciousness of your company, and it’s up to you, as the HR leader to draw a circle around it and express it? Where do you come down on that?

Maryjo Charbonnier 15:15
I think I think about it as a garden. Right? It’s a garden that needs to be tended and cultivated, yes, if left to its own devices, it will grow, grow organically. But that may or may not be what you want. And in our case, we were being sort of thoughtful gardeners in terms of the focus on it. So yes, but I also believe it’s not just hrs job, I mean, we have a special role to play in the cultural journey. We’re often its facilitators expresses, and we can engineer solutions to change the way the garden grows. But it’s not just HR to work to tend the garden, it’s every leaders work.

Rob Stevenson 15:55
I love this garden metaphor, can we just extend it? I think, probably all the way down. Let’s start with what are the weeds in that garden of culture that you need to be mindful of and root out?

Maryjo Charbonnier 16:06
Yeah, I think first there’s a good definition of culture, right? And culture is the spoken, and unspoken messages that encourage, tolerate or discourage certain types of behavior. Right? So if you think about that, you have to be paying attention to a lot of things when you go to be a good gardener, right? Because you have to be listening to what said, but oftentimes, one of the most important things HR people do is listen to what isn’t said in the room? And who is it said to? And who is it not said to? And so I think we tried to be very explicit in thinking with our leaders and documenting and writing down and we went through sort of a very participative process in crafting the Kyndryl away and the leadership behaviors around what was the behavior that was good that we wanted to maintain? And what behavior did we think was going to prevent Kyndryl from growing from delivering better service to customers. And then along the way, we also went out and asked 90,000 Kyndryls, once we got a good draft of it going, we actually went out and did a two day cultural exchange, or on 90,000, Kyndryls had a chance to interact with the executive team around what they thought, generally, we heard good things, I think it reinforced, we were on the right path, it reinforced the things that we thought were going to be easier to do versus more aspirational to do or the right ones. And so that was a part of it is inviting everyone into the garden, right and making them feel like they have a chance in the design to shape it. I think that year two of our journey has really been about that process of systems, right? If you think about anything you have to do over and over again. It’s a habit. And that habit shapes a behavior and that habit, shapes culture. So we’ve been really intentional in our second year of thinking about how do we simplify a lot of day to day systems that get in today’s modern day world deeply embedded into kind of core IT structures as well in the organization, and really trying to get them stripped down and as lean as possible. Because we know that we are still on a lot of technology we inherited from the spin, and are having a chance this year to really simplify those things as we get out of the historic sort of technology footprint. And then lastly, symbols, right, we talked about this a little bit, but really being thoughtful about what we recognize, you’re down to like really basic things. What are the words we use in an organizational announcement about how somebody gets promoted? What do we say? And are those words consistent with the behavior we’re looking for? So I mean, the very practical things we’ve done to really start to bring the cultural change to light.

Rob Stevenson 18:55
Can I get really granular with you on that last example, what is the language that messages? A promotion, you believe is in alignment with the culture?

Maryjo Charbonnier 19:04
Yeah, so let’s go back to those you know, we can send it to you happy to share it. One page, we give every employee a little red book that talks about the Kyndryl way and describes the leadership behaviors. So under empathy we talk about is someone who communicates in a very candid manner with all levels of the organization who listens broadly, and encourages others to listen to lots of diverse perspectives. So if we were gonna write an Oregon estimate, we might mention some of those words specifically if that person has a role model example of this.

Rob Stevenson 19:38
So in this case, it would not merely be this person has performed at the top of their class of title, it would just be like, what is the actual value that they’ve lived up to?

Maryjo Charbonnier 19:50
Yeah, we’ll talk about the results they delivered but we’ll also talk about their behavior.

Rob Stevenson 19:54
That makes sense. I love that you keep bringing up the word behavior and I actually want to ask you to do repeat that definition you gave a moment ago for culture because I think it’s the best definition of culture I’ve ever heard, would you mind saying and again.

Maryjo Charbonnier 20:08
I will say it again, just a big shout out to the folks that walk the talk, who are experts in cultural journeys, and that’s who we’ve been partnering with. And I love their definition, which is why we use it. But it is, culture is the spoken, and unspoken messages that encourage or discourage behavior.

Rob Stevenson 20:31
I love it because it’s not net positive or negative, it’s a neutral, like those could be negative behaviors as well, that could be encouraged, right? Negative messages as well. So think about the word culture, in a scientific aspect, you can have a culture in a little petri dish of cancer cells, right? You can have a culture of anything, right? It doesn’t have any like thing good or bad thrust upon it, it’s neutral. So in the same way, it’s like your culture could be encouraging terrible behavior or adverse behavior.

Maryjo Charbonnier 21:03
Yeah. And I hope that we aren’t, we’re trying to do the exact opposite of that. But yeah, that’s why we want it to be so thoughtful about the expression of the behavior and the expression of the culture and put it in words that I’m one of the things I love about the Kyndryl ways, right. They’re not the everyday words you find in typical corporate speak, right? You don’t really hear the value of empathy, or restlessness, or devotion. We’d love to debate on every word, by the way. But I think there are things that people relate to, especially in a post pandemic world and really learned that empathy was so important during that period, and people wanted to sort of keep that along the journey. So I think we are still in a learning mode. I don’t think we’ve got it perfect yet. But I think we’re really trying to be thoughtful and intentional, and build it into all different kinds of ways. So the other ways we’ve done it was we quickly renovated our leadership curriculum. And we inherited this wonderful leadership curriculum. But the values in it now are different than the values we wanted to we work through every curriculum, we have to embed the Kyndra away in it. Again, we launched a survey out to our engagement survey in the that was the year look back on progress. We gave every leader the ability to see if they were a manager of managers, their roll up, but they could also toggle and see their own scores for their direct reports. So think about as a 90 degree feedback on culture, we gave every people manager on those key questions so that it became sort of very personal in the journey as well, because it has to be personal because it’s about how each one of us behave.

Rob Stevenson 22:43
Can you share an example of some behaviors that are indicative of value?

Maryjo Charbonnier 22:48
I think we’ve been working on let’s talk about one that’s maybe more aspirational for us. And that’s being fast, right. And that was really to cultivate simplicity everywhere. We empowered a lot of delegation and told everybody, Hey, now you can sign off at the country level around maybe headcount decisions, you can make hiring those types of things. And yet, we figured out we had this other system where everyone sort of snuck back in and added layers and layers of approval. So while one side of our behavior was right, what we learned is, oh, it may be needed a more holistic solution, because every one of they didn’t agree with it, because they were still saying, Well, you say I’m empowered. But I own that accountability too. So I need to be involved in that decision making. So that’s what I mean about sometimes especially I think, when you’re a new company, you have a good intent, we have to be open to the feedback that maybe you didn’t get that one just quite right yet. And that’s why it’s really important. As we asked the kyndryls at our one year anniversary hit give us the feedback, we allowed write in comments. We also have a group called our cultural ambassador network, and they’re in all organizations and countries. And they help I think, keep the lines of communication open. They share best practices on what our different countries and groups are doing. And they provide a feedback mechanism back to myself and my peers around, Hey, how’s it really going? Is it really changing at the kind of foundational levels yet? Because you don’t want to assume that the culture is changing that that garden is really neater and more organized and blooming just in the sun where you want to do unless, you know.

Rob Stevenson 24:24
I would love to know, let’s say you receive an email from one of your leaders in the cultural ambassador network. And they say something like, look, we’ve got the values, we’ve got this great definition of culture, we have behaviors that are attached to those values. I’m not really seeing it, take hold. What would you want to do to try and turn that around?

Maryjo Charbonnier 24:45
We have that going on. hypothetical.

Rob Stevenson 24:48
Click over to your inbox right now.

Maryjo Charbonnier 24:52
And it doesn’t happen accidentally meaning we’re very intentional in seeking that feedback. We just did a series of executive focus group’s countries do focus groups and share our employee engagement, you know, action plans that came out of that survey. So we’re constantly actually looking for that feedback, you have to be intentional about it. I think one of the things we heard was hey, you told us to be restless and devoted to shared success, hey, we don’t actually understand how that’s kind of working at a roadmap level. So we’re going back to talk to our executive teams about that. We also heard from the executive teams that while we had a value of empathy, maybe people perceived that we were still talking to them in ways that was very sort of top down and non empathetic. So we gave that feedback back to so I would say, part of working on a culture is you have to get that kind of loop of communication going of, hey, this is working stay the course or hey, this isn’t working, make adjustments.

Rob Stevenson 25:56
Mary Jo, you are an encyclopedia of cultural process. Like, forget, talk down to me, you should probably have a masterclass. But I do want to learn more about you as well, because I love what you said earlier about how the titles for the work you ended up doing didn’t exist. So what did your bosses do with you? How did those like one on one conversations go?

Maryjo Charbonnier 26:18
I was probably never the easiest person to manage in my HR career, I think. But I think anyone who’d worked with me for a while knew. And I spent 13 years at PepsiCo, and I was always like, hey, send me to most troubled places. And one of the titles that I had, oh, my gosh, almost like 20 years ago was I was the head of change management for Frito Lay. And when I look back on my career, and I think about, I didn’t even know what I think it was when I got signed up to do it. Because it was really early on in kind of change management as a practice, in HR, like we think about recruiting or compensation. But it was probably one of the most important jobs I had in terms of learning how to systematically roll out change, and drive change in an organization. So I would say the culture work is just another type of change, where and HR teams work on types of change work all the time, whether you’re rolling out a new recruiting system or tool or a new compensation process, you’re or you’re trying to roll out a kind of set of training to change behavior, you’re really doing change work all the time. And so I think when I look back on my career, what enabled a lot of the love I had, and the work I ended up doing was that Job.

Rob Stevenson 27:36
Was that under the HR umbrella or was its own thing?

Rob Stevenson 27:40

Maryjo Charbonnier 27:41
It was interesting at that point in time and Frito lays journey, we had a lot of work to do on better it processes to even out the supply chain and the signal that was coming from customers and consumers back into the manufacturing distribution, so that we could run more efficiently if we knew we were going to sell more of this than that. And so the actual supply chain organization and IT organizations were rolling out a great deal of change. And the HR organization said, we have high levels of concern about how that’s going to hit some of our employee groups. And we want to be really thoughtful then about how those changes got rolled out. So the HR team was sort of the lead partner on how to get the change done.

Rob Stevenson 28:28
I see. Well, Mary Jo, we are creeping up on optimal podcast length here. I don’t want to let you go. But there are rules here are the podcast blog, people think it’s just willy nilly, we’re all over the place. But no, this is a delicate, you know you have to thread. But before I let you go, I would just love to hear what advice you would give to folks as they forge ahead in their HR career?

Maryjo Charbonnier 28:48
Look, I think first early on, if you can move into different parts of HR, I started my career in an HR rotational program or early on right out of college, I got to rotate through all these various different parts of HR. If you can do it, try it, I think you’ll find that you like different things. And oftentimes, I might say to an HR business partner, well, look, I want you to do a rotation into compensation, or into recruiting, you don’t have to love it. But if you go back to being an HR business partner, you’ll be a forever better HR business partner from having done something else in HR. So first, I would say early on, rotate through so many other different parts of HR, if you can. Second is really take time to understand how the business works. A lot of what we’re doing on the culture side is directly linked to our business goals and what we’re trying to do to support our customers better. So understanding what the business does to make money, how the business serves its customers, whatever business is in will serve you really well in an HR career and I often tell HR people if you want the shortcut to learning how the business works, learn about sales compensation. It’ll be the shortcut, and if you can really understand how incentive programs for salespeople are designed and have to consider, what’s the customer buying, how does profitability work in the organization so that we still make enough money to pay salespeople. That’s a great shortcut. And usually it’s not the place everyone loves. So it’s usually left the opportunity, there is a great way to learn the business. And then network, build your network. Everyone loves to talk about their career. So set up some time, if you have every quarter just to interview people in the field, who are doing things you might think are interesting. You’d be surprised what you learn along the way.

Rob Stevenson 30:35
Mary Jo, that is tremendous advice. And this has been a blast. You’re an absolute delight. Thank you for being here on the podcast and chatting with me today.

Maryjo Charbonnier 30:43
Oh, well, thanks for having me. Rob. It was really fun to talk with you. Look and you can always invite me back. If you want round two on culture.

Rob Stevenson 30:50
Don’t threaten me with a good time we will do. I’ll have you back anytime you like. Thank you so much, Mary Jo.

Maryjo Charbonnier 30:55
Alright, thanks Rob.

Rob Stevenson 30:58
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