kimdonegan

Job Family Role Prioritization at Edwards Lifesciences

Kim DoneganRecruitment Specialist

Michelle Egan and Kim Donegan, Recruitment & Sourcing Specialists at Edwards Lifesciences, explain how they’ve taken on the employee referral program, live events, and have prioritized hiring by grouping hires into “Job Families”

Episode Transcript

00:01 Rob Stevenson: Hello again, my wonderful recruiting goblins. Lovely day for a podcast, wouldn’t you say? Welcome come back to all of you, glad you’re with me. I’ve got some high quality grade A recruiting content just waiting to be gobbled up and digested into actionable talent acquisition insight. If you’ve never heard the show before, here’s the deal, every week I will bring in a different talent acquisition bestie or two, in this particular case. And we hang out, shoot the breeze. Occasionally, we graze across the topic of recruitment. No, that’s the main thing we do. We do more than graze. These directors of recruitment, heads of talent, these VPs of TA are all going to do primarily one thing, Talk Talent To Me.

00:48 RS: And this week’s episode features a pair of recruitment and sourcing specialists from Edwards Lifesciences, Michelle Egan and Kim Donegan. And they are up to some magnificent recruiting mischief over at Edwards. In addition to sourcing, they’ve taken on live events, the referral program, they are prioritizing roles by way of something they call job families. What’s a job family? Stay tuned, you’ll hear all about it. This is a really good one, so I’m going to get out of the way, so we can just cut to the chase after the jump are Edwards Lifesciences’ recruiting and sourcing specialists, Michelle Egan and Kim Donegan.

[music]

02:04 RS: Okay, first up, as so many fine recruiters have, she cut her teeth as a recruiter at Aerotek, moved on to a senior recruiter for clinical research at inVentiv Health Clinical, now is a medical device recruitment and sourcing specialists at Edwards Lifesciences, Michelle Egan. Michelle, how are we?

02:23 Michelle Egan: Hello, I’m doing great. Thanks for asking.

02:25 RS: And sitting right beside you is also a product of the Aerotek School of Hard Knocks, where she served in several roles, but ultimately as a recruiting lead. Now she’s also a medical device recruitment and sourcing specialist at Edwards, Kim Donegan. Kim, how are you?

02:39 Kim Donegan: I’m good, thank you so much for asking.

02:41 RS: Yeah, of course. I’m really, really excited about getting this chat knocked off, and I was, or started off anyway, and I’m so excited I came and form regular sentences. I meant to say kicked off, but I said knocked off. Here we are, just really coming off strong right out of the gate.

[laughter]

02:57 ME: Oh, no, no, no. We’re happy to be here. It’s gonna be a good convo.

03:02 RS: Totally. Cool. So you two were kind of the first dedicated sourcers over at Edwards. So I’m curious, what did sourcing look like before you two? And then when you started, how did you go about reforming the whole function?

03:19 KD: So I actually started with Edwards, this is Kim, before Michelle in April of 2017?

03:28 ME: ’17, yeah.

[chuckle]

03:30 KD: But I’ve been here for about a year-and-a-half at this point. And when I started, essentially the sourcer role and how it was actually explained to me in the interview process was that the sourcer role was a stepping stone to being a recruiter. I would do this role for a year or two, and then end up working my way into a recruiter role, which even at that point, I was like, “Eh, I don’t know that I wanna do that.” I like the sourcing aspect, but I figured I would just cross that bridge when I got there if I needed to. And as luck would have it, about four months after I started, they actually hired a manager of sourcing or now a manager of strategic sourcing is her title. So she was really brought in to develop sourcing as a function and really change the mindset from being almost a recruiter assistant, which is really how the role was looked upon, and it’s still something that we’re doing a lot of change management to change at this point. But really, again, just kind of flesh it out as an actual function where we do a very different job than what the recruitment team does. And then I think a couple of months after Kelly, our manager started, Michelle was brought into the team.

04:50 ME: And so for me, I would explain the role a little bit different in a sense that our manager had already had the plan set and was trying to put it into motion. And it was, “Hey, you’re not gonna be assigned to anyone in particular. You’re gonna be brought on as more of a utility player. But given your and Kim’s backgrounds as recruiter leads, and the implementation, and the building out processes.” I thought it’d be great for us all to collaboratively build out my vision. And so that was really exciting for me. I was not only able to source as well as help build out the strategic sourcing ideas that our manager had. It was awesome. It was really exciting to join the team and…

05:36 KD: Yeah, and to answer your question what the sourcing team looked like. So when I started, it was… I was the only internal sourcing partner, because the other internal sourcer had just been promoted into a recruiter role. And the other members of the sourcing team were all contractors, working part-time essentially. And what the role really entailed, it was like we were EMTs out in the field, just kind of triaging what we could, bandaging what we could. We were constantly getting 911 calls, “Oh, I’ve had this req open for this many days, and I can’t find anyone,” or, “Oh, I have 150 applicants and I’ve not had time to go through said applicant, so I need you to find someone for me.” And at that point, I had no guidance as to what really my role entailed. So I took on a lot of that work. So it was a lot of… There was no strategy behind it, it was literally all just doing that triage and bandaging what I could, and at least getting candidates in the process.

06:47 KD: So the biggest change that I’ve seen over the year and a half that I’ve been here is that as Michelle mentioned, we’ve really moved towards strategic sourcing. And we’ve kind of lobbed around a few different ways of how we decide, I guess, which reqs are worthy of our time. And where we’re gonna focus, and how we decide what a strategic jobs family is, but it’s been an interesting process because we don’t even have a CRM. We’re a huge, global billion dollar public company. And I came to work my first couple days, and I was like, “Oh we’re doing everything in Excel still.” So, it’s been difficult to get data because we didn’t have a lot of reporting mechanisms because Excel saved on my computer obviously it doesn’t give any reports that are inclusive of the whole team. So, that’s been kind of one of the biggest, I think, challenges that we faced when coming up with our strategic pipelines and deciding again, which reqs we’re gonna focus on was how are we gonna get this data and what are we gonna look at? So, how we did that was our manager coined this term, [chuckle] what does she call it? Behavioral…

08:10 ME: Behavioral data analysis.

08:12 KD: Yeah, so we don’t have great workforce mining here. They’re usually off by hundreds. Usually by six months in, we’ve hired as many people as they think we’re gonna hire for the whole year. And it’s not because we’ve had mass exodus or anything like that, it’s just they’re always so very far off. So, what we did to start actually designing our strategic pipeline, we just look at the past data for 2016, I think 2017, and then 2018 year-to-date. We broke everything into job families. So, I think a good example of what a job family would be here would be, for instance, R&D engineers. A job family in that category is senior through principal level. At the end of the day, we’re looking for the same technical skills. And the soft skills aren’t that far off either. And the next job family would be your management level candidates. So, that’s just to kinda give you an idea of what that grouping looks like. It’s kind of broad, yet specific groups if that makes any sense. But we looked across the different functions and the business units and saw where we’ve hired people in the past. So again, from 2016 till present day.

09:32 KD: So, we were able to see very specific trend. For instance, R&D senior-level again, through principal engineers, I can’t think of the number of the top of my head, but we probably hire 30 of those a year. Whereas other roles that are made to be more corporate functions, we hire two a year. So, essentially, we ended up making I guess the bar was drawn at five. Five hires. If in any given function and business unit we make five hires within this given family, or within this given job family, then that becomes a strategic req, or a strategic pipeline req. And basically, at that point, any time one of those requisitions is open, the sourcer is automatically associated to the req. So, we’re constantly building those pipelines. And if a req is not open within that job family, we’ll open up pipeline requisitions for it so that we’re constantly mining for that talent.

10:37 RS: When it comes to prioritizing roles then, it’s not so much like what is the highest business impact role we have open, it’s more like what is the greatest need in terms of volume?

10:48 KD: So there is… There’s a concurrent project going on within the recruiting team where they’re doing this role prioritization stuff. Where they are, it’s kind of like a matrix you plug it into and it weighs the business needs. So, their kind of role prioritization is a little bit different than ours. Their’s is by function. At the end of the day, R&D wins all. R&D is our focus.

11:16 RS: Got it.

11:17 KD: We’re a very patient-focused company. And in order to get our technology out to said patients, we do need to heavily support R&D in all ways that we can. So for instance, finance, though very important obviously, for a publicly traded company, finance isn’t necessarily getting our products out the door. So, on the role prioritization metrics, it’s…

11:42 ME: Lower on the totem pole.

11:42 KD: It’s lower on the totem pole. Yes. So, their prioritization is different than ours. How we’re differentiating ourselves from recruiting, however, is that we are focusing on these roles that we fill constantly and that we hire a lot of. So, we don’t necessarily have a hierarchy of prioritization within the roles that we work on. Essentially anything that falls within that strategic pipeline gets our attention.

12:09 RS: Okay, that makes sense because you’re always gonna need pipeline for that specific role. It makes sense to put a lot of resources behind it because there’s always gonna be more hires needing as opposed to, “Alright, we’re gonna have you spend your time on this one off role,” that maybe is very high level and very strategic, but it’s not in terms of the grand scheme, it’s not a great use of your time because it’d be better off to have a ton of pipeline for this role that we’re gonna hire a 30 of.

12:33 ME: Exactly. And that’s kind of what the term that our manager coined. The behavioral data analysis, where that comes from is just looking at the past trends. And to kind of add to that past trends digging a little bit deeper is saying, “Okay, of these 30 R&D engineers that we hired, if 20 of those were referrals internally, is that gonna be the best use of our time to put sourcing on that, or should we look at referrals first, or if it was vice versa, 20 of those 30 were sourced and that’s how we got the hire, then yeah, let’s do sourcing, or did we use an agency or an outside vendor?” So, really digging into the past trends to determine where the best use of our time is. And that’s not to say that those one-offs or those two hires a year, we won’t dedicate our time to. I think we look at our bandwidth. And we look at what does that role entail, what has the recruiter done so far on those roles and then re-evaluate from there.

13:40 ME: So, it’s become a much more of a partnership with sourcing and recruiting. Whereas when Kim started it was… We were the assistants and we put the fires out and we were just almost like at their beck and call, but all over the place and no strategy behind it. So it… One day doing this and the next day just hopping on to something brand new and you just kind of forget what you did the day before and the next week you circle back to it. There was really no really good process behind it to have any effective results.

14:10 RS: Got it.

14:11 ME: So I think that, yeah, the partnership now and with what recruiting is doing simultaneously as far as building out maybe what recruiting is as a function and how we partner with each other. We’ve had so many meetings to say, “Okay, what do you as a recruiter think that a sourcer does on the daily or what do you think our role is?” And then we go as far as to say, “Well let us define it for you so that we’re now all on the same page working together to meet that end result.”

14:42 RS: What did they say? When they were asked what does a sourcer mean to you?

14:46 KD: Well, Michelle and I were running that meeting so it was all real positive. Had that been a closed door meeting, I would be curious to see what…

14:57 ME: The answers would be, yeah.

14:58 KD: What the answers were. But it’s been very clear as we’ve gone through this process explaining like, “Hey, we understand this is a new process. We understand you’re used to just hearing yes, and you’re not gonna just hear no now. But we’re gonna have a lot more of a conversation around the reqs… ” When you say, “Hey, I have a new requisition open. It’s not just send me the job description and I’m gonna run through fire to find this person.” We’re gonna have a conversation first. We have a sourcing strategy document that we have to fill out, which is… It’s a kind of living, breathing document that both the recruiter and the sourcer have some responsibility for filling different sections out. We’re gonna do one of the other services that we as sourcers do now and that we’ve been spending a lot of time really honing I guess our craft in, is workforce and labor workforce analysis. We utilize the TalentNeuron to do a lot of that and LinkedIn analytics as well. But to see where these populations of candidates are and if the hiring manager’s ask is realistic.

16:10 KD: And I think a really good example of where this has come into play, I have a position, it’s a quality position, a quality engineer. And its supplier development which there’s just not a lot of people that do it. Yeah, I think across the nation there is I don’t know, with med device experience specifically too.

16:31 ME: Right, right.

16:31 KD: Of course, [16:32] ____ med device. But there are, I don’t know 2600 people that came up in the TalentNeuron search. I did a quick LinkedIn search and there was like 68 people across again, the US. Or no, that was in California. So, this hiring manager essentially is saying, “I want med device, I want supplier development experience and I don’t wanna relocate anyone.” Our policy is that we relocate anyone outside of… Who is 50 miles away from Edwards. That’s a hard and fast. We can’t… If we have someone that was 55 miles away, we have to relocate them. Like we have to pay for the relocation package just to keep everything the same and give all of our candidates the same experience. So if a hiring manager says, “Hey I don’t wanna relocate someone.” And we let them know, “Okay, well that’s limiting your search to 49-miles radius from Irvine, California.” Which isn’t that big. We’re not a huge hub, we’re not San Francisco where there’s med device companies everywhere. We do have a sizable hub here in Southern California, but it’s not like we have hundreds of companies to pick from.

17:45 ME: Right.

17:46 KD: So a way that this was really useful is that the recruiter has been having conversation after conversation with this hiring manager about how he really think we need to open it up nationally. He really thinks the manager needs to find the budget to relocate a candidate.

18:03 RS: Yes.

18:04 KD: So, I filled out our sourcing strategy doc and highlighted in the document exactly what his limitations were limiting the amount of candidates to. So essentially, I had on there, “Hey, nationally if you let me go from any industry, there’s 36,000 something people that do supplier development. Nationally, if you say you want med device, that takes it from that 36,000 to about 2600. And if you say you want me to find this person within 49 miles of our zip code in Irvine, that’s taking it down to 290 people.

18:45 RS: Yep. I love…

18:47 KD: 290 people is nothing.

18:49 RS: Yeah, yeah, totally. I love that approach of pushback because it’s all kind of hinged in the seed of what is the role of a sourcer. Is it to build quality pipeline? Certainly, that’s one of them. And some people might think that. Maybe recruiters take that or hiring managers take that maxim and think to themselves, “Okay, well that means that I give them a job req and they go off and build pipeline.” But where… From you work… From where you’re coming from, it’s like, “Okay, if I’m going to build quality pipeline, and you’re gonna limit me to 290 people, it’s not gonna happen”, right? So it’s like…

19:21 KD: Right.

19:22 RS: You have to… It’s pushing back and being armed with that data and pushing back against hiring managers or recruiters to set expectations where it’s like, “If you wanna hire this role, I can’t just go off in a vacuum and generate names for you. There are rules and this is what you can expect if you limit the search to this capacity.”

19:41 ME: Well, yeah, and I think it’s also as an education piece too. You’re educating the hiring manager to… Their focus is entirely different from ours, right? So they’re just expecting us to, “Hey, you’re recruiters, you’re sourcers, that’s your job, find the people. Where are my resumes?” But with… As specific as they get in their ask and with what we know the quality of hire should look like not only on a technical level, but cultural level as well, it’s challenging. And so to be able to have this document that like Kim mentioned that a living document that we’re ever adding to and perfecting as we go, and both recruiters and sourcers use it. It’s a way to present to these hiring managers, “See, this is what the market looks like right now, this is what we have to work with. And you are limiting yourself when these asks that may not necessarily be an attainable thing.”

20:45 KD: Yeah. Essentially, how we… I don’t want it to seem like we’re only working on these pipelines ’cause… So essentially we have three buckets of types of roles that we fill here. We do have those critical roles like you said. So, these are roles that fall within their… The Matrix for the recruiters for these business-critical roles which maybe are one-off two-off. So that definitely is one of the three buckets of the types of roles that we work on. That being said, it’s the smallest bucket, it’s 15% to 20% of our I guess, of our work load or our req load is dedicated to more of those, again, one-off critical roles, but again, we’re really having the recruiters look at alternatives. If this is a one-off role and it’s gonna take this amount of time, how about we find a trusted partner out there who only works on these types of roles because they’re gonna fill the position a million times faster than me having to learn all about this role and find the candidates out there. About 55% to 70% of our time is spent on open roles that fall within our strategic pipeline. So those kind of job families that I was talking about earlier, and then about 10 to 15 is closed, just pipeline requisition just building out for that future hiring. So those are the kind of the three buckets that we kind of see ourselves or I guess that we kinda put the roles that we fill in.

22:18 KD: And then, like I said, outside of just a sourcing function where we see our value add as a team is doing the labor market analysis and research. And another thing that we take on is we own the employee referral programs as well. And then Michelle really has spearheaded the events and conferences, I guess, our platform and how we as a recruitment team, how we show up at these events, which is definitely something very, very new for Edwards. Edwards, generally speaking, they don’t do a lot of advertising.

22:55 ME: Right.

22:56 KD: You won’t see our name around. The only time people really know who we are is A, if they’re in the cardiovascular field, whether it’s medical device or they work in that field in hospitals, or something like that, or if they know someone who have one of our heart valves.

23:10 ME: Yes.

23:11 KD: So one of the big focuses that we have as a sourcing team, is that brand recognition brand management type focus where we are showing up to these events, whether it’s a clinical research event that’s held in Maryland or it’s a manufacturing device alliance kind of thing that’s here, we’re showing up and that’s something… And again, that kind of [23:35] ____ under sourcing, so we have a lot of the out-of-the-box responsibilities and the sourcing is though it’s our main focus and our title, our time has definitely split between a lot of the other things that we are doing.

23:53 RS: Yeah, so you’re building quality pipeline, you’re doing labor market analysis so that you can have that data to push back on hiring managers, and set expectations, you’re managing the referral program, you’re tackling live events. What the hell are the recruiters doing over there?

[laughter]

24:08 RS: Like [24:08] ____.

24:08 KD: It’s a good question. So, the recruiters, their responsibilities are a lot more, they’re going through the applicants and they’re managing the process. So they’re doing a lot of the workflow of getting a candidate hired, where again, they’re working on a lot of processes as well, so they’re gonna make their jobs easier for themselves, too. They spend so much time like after a person has been interviewed just to get them hired, they’re just… And I don’t understand the process, ’cause I’m not super involved in it. But I do know they spend an exorbitant amount of time doing a lot of just red tape, paperwork stuff that it takes a lot away from the time that they could be spending really building relationships with hiring managers and sourcing on their own for some position, and we don’t have recruiter coordinators which is why I think the sourcing team in the past naturally fell into that role, which would be super helpful because they’re also doing all the scheduling, which can easily be a nightmare.

25:19 ME: Time consuming. Yeah, a very time consuming. They’re also that business partner to the hiring managers, they’re the introduction into… We are called GTA, Global Talent Acquisition, and they’re the face of us. And so all of the small tedious things that they have to do as well going through, dispositioning candidates through our ATS that we use, these are just little things that we’re trying to improve or the CRM that we’re looking to get. All of those things are going to eventually make this so much more of a fluidic environment and less for each of us to do and easier to partner with each other. But they do have their responsibilities just as we do, but in separate I guess functions or entities if you will. We all meet with the hiring managers, but that’s because we ask, “Hey, we’d like to go on these intake meetings so we can hear first hand what the role entails, what the hiring manager is looking for instead of you passing along the notes.” But we can’t always do that. We can’t always be there or be present, scheduling conflicts, or what have you. So again, they’re really the face of what this team as a whole does. And hiring managers don’t really necessarily know what we’re doing over here, as far as the sourcing as a function, recruiting as a function, and how we’re partnering, and what we’re trying to build out for the company.

26:49 RS: Totally. When you put it in those terms, it makes more sense that referrals and live events would fall under sourcing. Was that something that you sought out on your own? Was it something that kind of came down from on high, or were you sort of looking at the landscape and being like, “This should be my job, or I wanna undertake this because it means that I’ll be able to get in front of more candidates?”

27:12 KD: No. So, generally how a lot of this… [chuckle] how a lot of the things that Michelle and I individually own came upon us was we were the person who walked by so-and-so’s office. And they said, “Oh come in.” And we couldn’t run away. So, for instance, the Employee Referral Program, we were utilizing LinkedIn referrals until they sunset. So, of course once we found out they were sunsetting, we looked for another vendor to take that place. So, essentially I was tapped on the shoulder to run through the whole implementation and launch. But from there I was like, “Yeah, we have this. This is great.” But our employee referral program as a whole, I think best in class is getting 32% of your hires from referrals. And we weren’t anywhere near that. So, I have taken on employee referrals, because again, I did see, “Hey this is a really great way to get those future candidates. And to just continuously keep spreading the good will of Edwards, and the good name, and all that stuff.” Just constantly getting people into our pipeline. And then I think events and conferences was pretty similar for Michelle, where it was like a, “Hey, can you do this?” But it was initially we just went to a conference here in Anaheim that they have every year because Michelle used to go when she was at Aerotek.

28:39 ME: At Aerotek. Yeah, in engineering. And it was a really great forum for us to go. And we just walked around. So, I knew about it and kind of took the reins on that. And I think so the rest fell on me, where now it’s throughout the US. And it’s a lot of research. And I think for Kim and I, just the way that we are, and being in this industry, and knowing what it takes to really have a successful environment, and thrive in this work is to learn to be passionate about things. So, we could easily have just been given these projects and then done the bare minimum. And say, “Okay. Sure. This is implemented.” But both of us are very similar in a sense that we really get super passionate about it. And we want to present the best, the very best results. So, for Kim and her research with my referrals, she could have just set it up and then that’s that, but we went as far as to have a booth at work and give some giveaways, explain what you have to do, talk to people and be present. And same thing for me with the events. It’s just really, I wanna learn what feedback is, how could we do better, how can we improve upon our booth. “Hey, here’s a survey for those of you that went and represented the booth, what would you like to see done differently moving forward so that we can be ever growing with what we’re building upon here”, ’cause essentially it’s our names that are on it. So, the work needs to be good.

30:11 KD: Yeah, so I think one of the great things, you mentioned it earlier that Michelle and I both came from Aerotek, but we actually worked together for quite a few years, but I think one of the great things that came from that background was that we were so used to constantly trying to build our pipelines, and maintain these really close relationships, because it is. It’s a little bit different. We didn’t have a company reputation like we do at Edwards to ride on. ‘Cause a lot of times when I reach out to people within our industry, they knew who we are. They know we are a great employer. They know that our technology really does great things and that we aren’t just paying lip service to being patient-focused, but that is really something that is front of mind for Edwards as an organization.

31:01 KD: So, it is kind of easy to recruit for Edwards because people already know who we are and wanna work for us. Where as an agency, you don’t always have that luxury. You’re either not allowed to tell them about the company, or you don’t know a lot about the company. You’re kind of always trying to come up with these creative and innovative ways to really get people engaged, and get them really engaged in you. So, I think that’s a mindset that Michelle and I have brought to this recruitment team is that, that we have to do extra work to make sure that we are keeping our candidates engaged. And that we’re making sure that they’re invested in us as well, not just the organizations.

31:41 KD: So, I think that’s where we kind of come off as Michelle was saying, we were given these projects and they could have been kind of one and done, but we’ve tried to make them as big as possible and our reach as far as possible. And again, just really get it to the point where candidates aren’t just excited about working for Edwards because of our great technology, but they’re excited to be a part of the actual process of being hired at Edwards. And that they see our faces out there, and that they see our recruiting partners and our HR VPs and some of our technical leaders wherever they live in the country at their events.

32:19 RS: Yeah.

32:19 KD: I think that’s something that’s been super helpful.

32:22 RS: Yeah, definitely. And in line with investing in your candidates and being thoughtful about where all the pipeline is coming from, is diversity hiring an important initiative at Edwards?

32:33 ME: Yes. So I will say diversity is something that we’re newly tackling. We’ve just recently pulled a lot of really awesome data and really dug deep into what diversity looks like and means here at Edwards, and it’s at the forefront of what we wanna do to represent ourselves as a company, that we do want to make sure we are a diverse organization across the board. And I think we’ve done a really great job thus far, just looking at the campus and walking around and even bringing in people from internationally and considering maybe some people that are on sponsorships or H-1Bs or if we look at this pool of people and it can help us with our diversity initiatives is absolutely where we’re first and foremost going to go. In fact, there’s so many initiatives that we have going on at this very moment. That’s including minorities and veterans, and there’s all these programs that we are newly focusing on to ensure that we remain a diverse company or actually get better at being diverse. So it’s new, but that doesn’t mean it’s not very important to us and it’s something that we’re actively working on.

34:04 KD: Yeah, I would say we’re actively working and strongly committed to it. We’re definitely… We’re at the beginning of our learning process, but almost everything we’ve done here since we’ve started… We’ve been the first kind of people to tackle it, so it’ll be a challenge, and I think it’s definitely a challenge that a lot of companies are really focusing a lot of energy on right now. I definitely think we’ll be able to figure it out and really start impacting those under-utilized groups.

34:36 ME: Yep.

34:37 RS: Definitely. I love it. It all starts with data, of course. So I feel like we covered a lot of ground here. We could keep going. And maybe part two of this can be all the progress you’ve made in terms of diversity hiring, when you have some numbers to look at and have made your company more representative. But for now, as I know you have other meetings and sourcing to specialize in, so I would just say thank you so much for both of you for chiming in.

35:06 ME: It was awesome, thanks for having us.

35:08 RS: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you both.

[music]

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