Interview Upleveling with Kenso Head of Recruiting Bryan Menduke

Bryan MendukeKenso Head of Recruiting

Joining us in conversation today is Bryan Menduke, head of recruiting at Kensho. Tune in to hear all about his journey into the world of recruitment and the ins and outs of his work at Kensho. We talk about the difference between working for large and small companies, and Bryan assesses the state of operations at Kensho, from communication to a profile of the type of person they are looking to hire.

Episode Transcript

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[0:00:06.1] RS: Welcome to Talk Talent to Me. A podcast featuring the most elite talent leaders  on the frontline’s modern recruitment. 

[0:00:12.8] FEMALE: We actually want to understand the themes of someone’s life, we want to  understand how they make decisions. Where are they willing to take risks and what it looks like  when they fail. 

[0:00:22.7] RS: No holds barred, completely off the cuff interviews with directors of  recruitment, VPs of global talent, CHROs and everyone in between. 

[0:00:31.1] FEMALE: Once I went through the classes and the trainings got the certifications  through diversity and inclusion, I still felt like something was missing. 

[0:00:39.7] MALE: Talent acquisition, it’s a fantastic career, you are trusted by the  organization, you get to work with the C-Suite and the security at the front desk and everybody  in between and everybody knows you. 

[0:00:53.0] RS: I’m your host, Rob Stevenson and you’re about to hear the best in the biz, Talk  Talent to Me.  


[0:00:59.5] RS: Joining me today on Talk Talent to Me is the head of recruiting, Bryan  Menduke who runs the entire talent operation over there at Kensho. Bryan, welcome to the  podcast, how are you today? 

[0:01:09.5] BM: I’m good, thanks for having me on.

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[0:01:11.7] RS: Yeah, so pleased to have you. Lots to get into with you today, lots of stuff to  talk about, thanks for being here. I guess, first, would you mind sharing a little bit about your  company and what Kensho does? 

[0:01:21.6] BM: Yeah, absolutely. I am Bryan as you alluded to, Bryan Menduke. I run the  recruiting function over at Kensho. Kensho is a pretty unique company, we are about a  hundred people today and we are subsidiary of SMP Global, otherwise known as Standard  Implores, if you’re familiar with the stock market, the S&P 500, that’s one of their indexes but  they are a much larger global conglomerate with thousands and thousands of employees. 

Kensho operates as an independent innovation hub of SMP, we’re about a hundred people,  80% of our team is engineering and really, what we’re focused on is building and delivering  machine learning solutions to the financial sector, specifically to SMP internally and now  growing to expand to other customers externally as well. 

We build services to do things, for instance, speech to text recognition. SMP runs all of their  earnings calls through our transcription service. We are really leveraged SMPs data sets with  our machine learning talent in and software engineering capabilities to build tools. 

[0:02:29.2] RS: Got it. That’s helpful context, thanks for sharing. What about the Bryan of it all,  can you share maybe a little bit about your background and how you wound up at Kensho? 

[0:02:37.4] BM: Yeah, I worked in a few different roles prior to getting to Kensho. As I would  say, 99.9% of recruiters have probably said on this podcast, how do you get into recruiting, the  answer is, I have absolutely no idea, I just do it now. Anyone that tells you differently is  probably lying, I don’t think anyone grew up and said, “I want to recruit software engineers or  sales people for a living.” You probably don’t even know that existed.

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When I left college, I joined the staffing agency for a little under a year, loved recruiting, didn’t  like how sales-y, it just felt too transactional for me on the staffing side of things. For me, I  decided to move in-house pretty quickly, hopped over from there to a company at the time,  that was called Thinking Phones, which eventually evolved into Fuse which, when I joined, we  were probably around 200, 20, 50 people grew over three years, I was there to about 750 or so  and a TA team around six or so people with a global presence. Left there after three years  where I was doing pretty much everything in professional services and technical recruiting. 

I joined a more popular name, Draft Kings for two years where I was doing all software  engineering focus recruiting for full stack developers, data science, singular liability and  infrastructure engineering. Really got to really cut my teeth in software development there and  software development recruiting, helped them grow, was there from about 300 employees to – left the day we went public, so I left there during the pandemic, when we IPO’d and joined the  team at Kensho for really, the opportunity of – to get back into a small team.  

I have been here just around two years now and starting, really the beginning of this year, we  started growing the team so today, I have a team of two people today that hopefully will be  expanding shortly. 

[0:04:30.6] RS: Why is it you wanted to join a small team? 

[0:04:32.3] BM: Yeah, I joined a small team because I think there’s a lot of ability to innovate  and take on a lot of things outside of just a really small scope that you get in some larger  companies. I loved my time over at Draft Kings so by the end, I was really focused on one  specific space, data engineering and civil liability engineering. That was my space, that was it,  that’s all I recruited for. 

Now, at Kensho, when I joined doing the more SNIC, I was back to I was doing machine  learning engineers, software, infrastructure, even doing some time to time occasional sales role  and that provides a lot of more perspective and a lot more fun than interesting projects, as well 

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as inspire our companies, right? You can do a lot more around shaping process and really,  getting to how we do things and impact that company wide. 

[0:05:20.5] RS: Got it. The tradeoff seems to be resources of a huge company, versus agility of  a small company. Do you find that to be the case? Do you miss the bigger resources you had  before it all? It sounds like you don’t. 

[0:05:33.2] BM: Not too much, I did like being part of a larger TA team and being able to  bounce off ideas and working with our Draft Kings TA team when I left is probably 20, 30 plus  people because that’s really cool, right? To be working with a lot recruiters but what I really like  in a small company is an addition is, that, in a startup like that impact that you get to have with  like executive leadership. 

No matter if you’re the head of recruiting or it’s your first recruiting job, in a small company,  you’re going to be able to get exposed to the CEO, the CTO or whatever, VP or whatever  you’re calling at your company. You get that exposure because especially at that size, it’s like,  hiring is so critical and being ale to get those insights from C-level executives is really valuable.  

It’s really cool to see like when I joined Fuse, being able to talk to the CEO and CTO and that’s  really valuable stuff and even today, I communicate with the CEO and you know, directly,  pretty much all the time and our CTO and that’s really cool, which you know, at larger  organizations, you don’t always get the opportunity to do that because the enterprise is just  too big. 

[0:06:41.1] RS: Yeah, I had that similar experience early in my career working for a small  company, not earlier in your career but I remember sitting in meetings and just like, having  access to C-level folks and I’d be in these meetings and I would have nothing to contribute,  right? I was just listening to people much smarter and more accomplished than I, bat around  these ideas and it was super valuable to me to kind of have that exposure. 

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I think it’s similar for really, any professional, if you have that opportunity to work at a very  small agile company is a great way to accelerate your growth, just because you have that  access to more senior level folks than you might for a while in your career anyway. 

[0:07:14.9] BM: Exactly, it’s awesome to just see like not only just how a TA function runs in a  big company but then, in a smart company, how is the business actually run. What’s important  not just in recruiting but what’s important, operationally for our business to actually be  successful and sell products to customers and bring in revenue? 

[0:07:36.7] RS: Yeah, exactly, sort of holistic understanding of the whole business, it may  allude you if you are one person in a 600-person recruiting team because the people you’re  going to interface with are probably going to be just in recruiting, maybe a couple of hiring  managers in their departments whereas in a smaller company, you’re going to speak to  everybody. 

[0:07:53.4] BM: Exactly. 

[0:07:55.3] RS: What is top of mind for you right now at Kensho? What’s kind of the state of  the town operation over there? 

[0:08:01.6] BM: Yeah, it’s a good spot to be because we are in the beginning processes of  getting our products out to customers more and more now. Really looking at as we do that,  naturally, we’re going to be growing. In order to grow, there’s a lot of things that go into that  and how do you hire at a bigger scale, which I think is a problem for anyone today in the TA  world, especially during this period where it’s really hard to retain talent.  

How do we keep acquiring talent and what’s really top of mind for me is making sure we do  that really efficiently and we understand as we grow, what are we clearly looking for? How do  we define what great talent is for Kensho and making sure as we bring on new people to the  organization or people who have been here and have never interviewed before, how do we 

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ensure that those people are setup for success and make sure that those people understand  this is what we’re looking for in talent?  

Not just, “Here’s a job description and this is what we’re hiring for” because most people don’t  like, there’s way more than just what a job description says and what you’re looking for in a  role. How do we actually define for someone that’s never interviewed before or has interviewed  a lot this what we’re truly looking for when you talk to this person and then, when we talk about  it in the feedback and you can actually relay the relevant information we need to make the  correct decision. 

[0:09:25.1] RS: Yeah, that makes sense. That feedback, how are you going about  standardizing that and making sure that what you get from folks in the team is actually  actionable. 

[0:09:35.0] BM: Yeah. There’s a few different things, the first thing I think is what the baseline  thing I always like to do is make sure we have feedback forums that are just like generally built  out to cover really high level – what we’re looking for. Technical roles, that’s really easy  because coding interviews are a lot more straightforward than a recruiter interview for instance,  right?  

Can you code or can you not code, right? What are you looking for in those interviews? Making  sure that in every feedback form that someone fills out, we actually have in there, what are  some of the key general traits that we’re looking for. That may be, they finished a solution, the  runtime complexity was linear whenever it may be, they created unit test, really basic things  like that to ensure that at minimum, we have a checklist for someone who will go in and remind  themselves in the filling out the feedback form. 

Okay, these are the basic things, what do they do, yes, no, they did this, this is good, within  that because there’s a lot of – it’s really easy to have just a feedback form that’s blank and that  can lead to a lot of bias if you just have a text box that’s completely free text, there is no hints  or anything about what we’re looking for. People can go a million different ways if you don’t 

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put them in the right direction, that can lead to different biases of what people may think is  successful or not successful. 

[0:10:56.5] RS: Yeah, absolutely. How does that kind of scale with seniority, is it about more  specific abilities or – I’m thinking of like at a manager level, assessing for leadership abilities,  management abilities, a little more nuance maybe than the base requirements for someone’s  ability to software engineer and the way you need our software to be engineered, right? How  do you scale the rubrics up for more senior and management types? 

[0:11:19.9] BM: Yeah, I guess I must go back one step. On a baseline like we have those  interview feedback forms, what we’re working on now is actually defining rubrics outside of  those forms so really, on a high level. In the feedback form, it’s like okay, did they talk about  unit tests, did they implement an algorithm, right? Did they finish the solution? 

Now we’re creating rubrics outside of that for training purposes for people to anyone that’s  doing these interviews. We’re now in the process of defining within each of those, what is  junior mid-level and senior look like? For instance, did they finish the problem? Okay, well, did  they finish it with no help? Did they finish it with the little hint or did they finish it because you  basically had to tell them the solution, right?  

For all of those different categories, did someone jump in and ask, did you give him the  question and they just jumped in and did it without asking any clarifying questions? Did they  ask clarifying questions? Were they good at clarifying questions? Defining that in our rubric is  really going to be critical where we’re in the process of doing that now because we have so  many people here that this is their first time interviewing or this is the first time they’re  interviewed at Kensho.  

We really need to help define for everyone what exactly junior and mid-level or senior looks like  across the board so there’s no confusion from one engineer to another where it’s like, “Oh,  we’ll just leave it up to interpretation what you think.” We need to have some sort of standard  for what that is across the board at Kensho.

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[0:12:52.7] RS: It sounds like with some of those questions, did they ask clarifying questions  going in, how much help with and they received, what was the communication style like, that is  less about base level competence and that sounds more like trying to assess for the way you  do work at Kensho. Is that accurate? 

[0:13:13.1] BM: Yeah, Kensho is really – we really focus on open communication across teams  and peer to peer, peer to manager, peer to executive even, like me, we thrive on this idea of  flat hierarchy. We’re looking for people that aren’t afraid to ask questions or aren’t afraid to fail  but you’re going to run experiments and some of them are going to fail and some of them are  going to be great, you’re going to try – we want you to think of a new idea, if the idea doesn’t  work, that’s okay. 

Setting up an environment that people aren’t afraid to fail and it’s really critical for us and  people coming in, we don’t want you to just be independently siloed, right? Just, we have no  idea what’s going on, we want someone that wants to come in and if you don’t know, ask. We  want to have that environment where you shouldn’t be afraid to ask questions. That will enable  us to do our best work or enable us to do our best work, enable you to do your best work and  enable you to do your best work. When we’re needed, you can get the guidance when you’re  not sure what’s next. 

[0:14:09.4] RS: Yeah, this is a part of assessing for company values, right? I think that is more  indicative, what are the styles attached to the work, that’s a better way to assess for  someone’s alignment with your company values than just asking them straight up about,  “What is the laminated poster you have that has your values on it?” That doesn’t seem like a  great way to evaluate but yeah, I’ve heard other people share with me and, “Look, let’s boil the  value down to a behavior and assess for the behavior” and now, you’ve assessed for the value,  right? Which seems like the right to do it. 

You also mentioned that you have people who are new to interviewing, meeting on our team,  right? They either haven’t interviewed much previously in their career or they haven’t 

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interviewed for this company and every company has it a little different, has different  expectations, there is this need to figure out how good people are at interviews and being able  to fill out a form and how to structure the conversation in an interview, all that stuff.  

It should not be assumed that someone can do that. What is your process of like interview  training? How are you making sure that the people you put these interviews are actually getting  out of it what you need them to do?  

[0:15:09.8] BM: Yeah, interview training is a big problem I think across for any company  especially smaller companies, right? Because it’s like you need to grow, there is only so many  people that could do interviews. If someone starts and they have more than like a year  experience like, “Cool, we need you to get into interviews. We need to keep up the demand of  people we have coming in.”  

By no means are you perfect today and it is really why we are talking about this today because  this is what’s top of mind for me, this is a project we are undertaking and when it comes to  training, that’s why we’re creating these interview rubrics outside of just on the feedback forms  because we want our managers – so I am doing this project with our managers for these  rubrics and they’ve broke up into teams to tackle each technical interview problem we ask.  

With the idea of, “What are the behaviors and technical skills that you top talent is doing today  that are working underneath you?” and then how do we put that on paper, right? What are you  top junior people doing? What are your top mid-level, what are your top senior level people  doing and taking that and just understanding this is what we should be looking for. These are  the behaviors, the technical skills that we should be looking for and then we can reference that.  

That way, you know, we can share with any new interviewer, I can show any new employee  and they say, “I want to do a coding interview now” or “My manager said I am ready to do a  coding interview, what should I be looking for?” It’s okay, not only do we need to learn the  question that we ask and train them in the question but here is actually the main skills that you 

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need to be evaluating and this is how you can define what level of success this person had on  a different interview.  

What we’re doing is kind of reverse of like instead of having the questions and then building  the rubrics around the questions, we’re actually going to have rubric, like a main rubric and  then have make sure our questions today are actually getting information that we need from  

those questions because if they are not, we’re going to be looking at them. Our next step is to  now figure out, “Okay, we have these defined terms of what success looks like at each level for  a day’s structures and algorithms quoting question.”  

Okay, if these questions are able to extract that information, then we need to change the  question we’re asking and we need to make one that actually gets out the information we need  because otherwise, this question is really going to be really just spinning our wheels and we  are not able to assess someone accurately that can come in and be successful in attention.  

[0:17:33.8] RS: How important is it to arm an interviewer with specific questions they should be  going in and asking?  

[0:17:40.7] BM: Yeah, I think for behavioral interviews and even technical interviews, it is  critical. You have a coding question, which it may seem perfect. They’re going to write a bunch  of code and done, right? But I think it’s really important for them to understand what the  nuances of the questions are and are there extensions of questions, you know, how do you dig  out that seniority outside of, “Oh, well they didn’t ask for any help and they got it right.”  

You know, maybe there is an add on that we can ask about and understanding like how to  navigate those questions and navigate those moments and interviews that you are able to take  that opportunity to like get in a quick question that might how senior or non-senior they are  and how to do that is best by watching people interview it and do shadowing.  

[0:18:25.4] RS: Yeah, thinking back on my own experience interviewing for companies, I am  not sure I was ever armed with questions. I think there’s like you shared with the role that you 


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are interviewing for and what are the key competencies, what is this person going to be  expected to do but I was never – it was up to me. I was just kind of free styling in those  conversations but let’s have like – because you want also, we want the person to be  comfortable.  

You don’t want to just like go through a Q&A. You want to have a human conversation but you  also have to hit these points, you know? It is just a very clunky sort of situation don’t you  think?  

[0:18:58.2] BM: Yeah, like you don’t want to have technical versus like a recruiter to do it can  be a little bit different because that is like an assessment and asking questions within the  assessment versus more of like a behavioral interview. I think for behavioral interviews what’s  really great is we actually have a list of questions like a bunch of them that all reflect our values  and what we say is, you know, pick one or two of the values that you actually think are going to  be most relevant that maybe this person has done or may have shown on their resume even.  

If it is a leader, maybe it is tied to one value or another or whatever it may be and maybe center  it around some of those but then take the conversation as it goes but use it as a rough  guideline so you are on track generally with the direction that we want you to go in.  

[0:19:44.3] RS: Yeah, you also mentioned shadowing, which I am interested in. I have always  found shadowing to be a little bit strange on the receiving end. I have been in interviews where  the person interviewing me was like, “This is so and so, they are shadowing me so they can do  interviewing but just pretend they are not here” and I’m like, “Impossible, they are there” and  they are like they’re there in the room and they’re just like what, just taking notes while I’m  speaking?  

It’s strange. Do you think there is value in shadowing just matter who they’re shadowing or  what level the interview is? Where do you come down on that? 


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[0:20:13.4] BM: Yeah, I think shadowing is very important but it has to be with the right people  and making sure new interviewers are shadowing people that you feel as an organization are a  great evaluators of talent and know how to navigate complex interviews. If you can go in and  watch a really experienced interviewer do a system design question or a coding question with  the senior level candidate or even junior level candidates like see how they navigate those, that  is really critical but making sure that person who is being shadowed is someone that knows  that reflects it.  

It feels really comfortable and they know how to evaluate talent properly, so when the new  interviewer who has never done this before after says like, “How did this interview go? What  did you think?” they are going to be actually training that person. If that person, if you are not  comfortable with that person training someone, then should they really be shadowing that  person because then you are really setting yourself up in the future for then that person to have  the kind of the same view points and maybe not able to evaluate the talent in the way that  needs to be done.  

[0:21:22.9] RS: Yeah, exactly. That is an interesting kind of peak behind the curtain. If you are  ever being interviewed and there’s a shadow there like there is a good sign that the person  who has been assigned to interview is really good at their job like maybe you will get a fair  shake out of them.  

[0:21:35.8] BM: Yeah, exactly.  

[0:21:37.3] RS: It is a good point that it can’t just stop there. You need to have probably have  the interviewer and the shadow meet afterward to be like, “Okay, this person is a yes for me  and here is all the reasons why” or how they can search that any way they want and they can  be like, “Okay, so what’s your judgment? What would you say before I color your judgment  with my own opinion?” but there has to be follow up because otherwise, it is just happening in  a vacuum. There is no point to it if it’s not actioned. 


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[0:22:01.0] BM: Yeah, if you just watch someone interview like you may glean a couple of  things out of it but there is a lot of different points in interviews where interviews go like  different directions for certain reasons and you could be comfortable following up and being  like, “Hey, why did you ask them this? I didn’t think this was normal, why did you talk about  this?” or when they did this, this was totally wrong but you let them go or you redirected them  like, “Why did you do this” versus that. What are the tradeoffs around that? 

Same thing like making sure you have that experienced interviewer that can navigate and  answer those questions. I think making sure that person wants to do it, right? Not just have  someone shadow someone who has no interest in training interviewers, right? Because you’d  want that experience to be fruitful and they can work closely together on that. Someone who  has no interest in teaching someone how to interview, then maybe they should be the one  doing the shadows.  

[0:22:53.9] RS: Yeah, that’s absolutely true because I’ve had the other thing happen too where  I was like, “Oh and Rob, so and so is going to shadow you in this interview” and I didn’t agree  to that, right? I didn’t agree to have follow up meetings and all of that, so yeah, you need to  have that by and that’s an important call out I think and it is just kind of going back to the  interview clunkiness, I think people interviewers probably just believe they are equipped to do it  because you are thinking, “Oh it is just a conversation. I have conversations all day.”  

“I can do it here, I know what it takes to work here. I know what it takes to do this role, so this  should be easy” but it is so different. Conversation doesn’t have to have an outcome. If I ran  into you Bryan at a party or something, we would just shoot the breeze and my only real goal is  have an enjoyable conversation and meet you and get to know a little bit about you and that’s  it but I am not trying to elicit all these things from you to have an outcome and judgment on  your abilities like that is a crazy thing to do off of one conversation frankly but it’s so  necessary. 


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I think that’s why people maybe don’t take interviewing as seriously as a skillset that they don’t  put the rigor to being good at interviewing as they might to somewhere else. It is the same  reason everyone wants to start a podcast by the way.  

[0:23:59.7] BM: Yeah and it is really hard. It is really hard to interview if you don’t want to  interview but even if you do want to interview, it is not easy to interview and you have to put in  that work to make sure you can evaluate candidates properly. If you are a manager or even if  you’re an individual contributor, you are doing these interviews like you’re going to have to  work with this person, right?  

If you don’t put in the work to figure out what we are looking for, understand what we are  looking for, you might bring on someone who ends up making you do more work because they  may not be the right fit for the role that we weren’t able to evaluate that properly.  

[0:24:32.9] RS: What’s the long term then of sort of revamping your interview process? Are you  going to be putting some metrics on it? How are you going to determine someone is a good  interviewer or not? Is that like retroactively going back and being like, “Yes, they were a strong  yes on this high performer” figure that out six months later that this person was a really good  hire and let’s go back to the interview stage and see what people said about them? 

[0:24:54.4] BM: Yeah, so I think it is a few things. We already have our feedback forms in place  for technical interviews. Now, we are going to have these rubrics in place for people to study  and understand just generally like junior, mid-level, senior, this is what defines it roughly and  then we are going to map the questions to it. If we don’t have enough questions after that  exercise, we are going to create questions, right?  

That will be a process by multiple engineers, creating new questions, testing it out on one  another, et cetera. Then we have a feedback form, a rubric and questions that are all in line  with one another. Then we start doing it on candidates and we have some of our more  experienced interviewers. Doing those new questions, we could have some of the less  experienced interviewers shadowing them, learning them and how to ask those questions. 


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Then by the end, you know ideally everyone that should be pretty ramped up, you know  hopefully knowing how to interview and what Kensho looks for and then in terms of what that  success looks like and how do I define someone who is a really good interviewer. I think what’s  important is looking at generally, if someone is a no one everyone, like why is that? If someone  says yes on everyone, why is that?  

I want to look at interview calibration to figure out how often does this person saying no and  how often is this person saying yes. Naturally, there is going to be some discrepancies  because you know some people might see more great candidates than others but generally,  most interviewers should probably be like in the 40 to 60% like yes-no ratio. If someone is like  90% yes or someone is 90% no, more likely than not something is going wrong.  

It is figuring out like where is the disconnect there? Is it we are not defining it correctly for  them? It could be a TA thing and then just like a general like today, we’re talking about maybe  we don’t have the rubric set up correctly so they don’t understand, so they just always put yes,  right? Or they always put no because they don’t actually really know or is it interview training  where this person is afraid to say no.  

They give everyone the benefit of the doubt and like while that’s great like obviously we want to  give people the benefit of the doubt in interviews, right? Not every single person that comes in  listening to your technical interview, there is no way or if so, you might have a hard time  defining what a good talent is if everyone is passing your interviews, right? Helping them  understand why are you always a yes or why are you always a no and really in an ideal world,  you are probably like 60-40, 40-60 like somewhere in that percentage in yes-no.  

Then for anything else, I try to evaluate what happened here. Was it a bad streak of luck, was it  just that they say yes or no to everyone.  

[0:27:31.9] RS: Yeah, makes sense. Bryan, to put in a nice little bow on this episode, what  advice would you give to folks who are maybe looking at their interview process or like, “Yeah, 


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it is working but it could be better. We don’t have the rigor involve” where do you start to tune  up your interview process and make sure that you’re yielding great talent?  

[0:27:48.8] BM: In terms of who to go to or how to begin that process?  

[0:27:51.9] RS: Yeah, just beginning that process. 

[0:27:54.0] BM: Yeah, so I think to begin that process, find the biggest gap, right? Then find  where you think the ball is being potentially dropped the most, what do you really think we  need as the head of talent acquisition or you are the recruiter on the team and identify that gap  and then try to navigate on some one-on-ones with your hiring managers or a CTO or a VP of  engineering and navigate asking questions and probing around, “Hey, I noticed this in our  interview process” and see if you can find someone in engineering that would really help  champion that.  

Then you have the internal stakeholder buy in to help create change and that’s how I really  recommend starting, always finding someone within the business because at the end of the  day, it’s their interviews, so if you can’t find someone that is going to be really hard to make  the change. Luckily at Kensho we have a lot of people that are very open to experimenting,  trying new things and they are open to this and I think this project is going pretty well this far.  

[0:28:52.9] RS: Sounds good. Bryan, this has been a great conversation. Thank you so much  for sharing all of your experience and your knowledge on this issue. It has been really helpful,  so yeah, it’s been a great episode. Thank you for being here.  

[0:29:02.3] BM: Absolutely. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me.  


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