As educational standards constantly change, is it still necessary to hire talent based solely on their educational background, or is there something else recruiters should be looking out for? Joining us today to help answer that question is the Head of all Talent Acquisition for India at Informatica, Aditya Singh. India has become a major source of talent for many companies based outside of the country, and our guest explains why India is unique in the talent that it produces. We learn about the country’s current surge in technical skills development, why startups remain the focus of many Indian investors, how Informatica has increased its uptake of offshore development centers, and what the company is planning for its long-term internal skills development. Aditya then explains the importance of an individual having soft skills and keen critical thinking ability, and why recruiters need to take these skills more seriously when hiring their talent. We end with our guest giving noteworthy advice to new and mid-career TAs who are looking to grow in the industry.
[00:00:05] RS: Welcome to Talk Talent to Me, a podcast featuring the most elite talent leaders on the front lines of modern recruitment.
[00:00:12] FEMALE: We actually want to understand the themes of someone’s life. We want to understand how they make decisions, where they’re willing to take risks, and what it looks like when they fail.
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[00:00:52] RS: I’m your host, Rob Stevenson, and you’re about to hear the best in the biz Talk Talent To Me.
[00:00:58] RS: Here with me today on Talk Talent To Me, is a man with a fantastic amount of experience in the talent space. He was the AVP of Talent Acquisition over at Accenture. He’s had a handful of roles at Informatica, where he currently is the Head of all Talent Acquisition for India. Aditya Singh is here with me. Aditya, welcome to the podcast. How are you today?
[00:01:17] AS: I’m good, Rob. Thanks for having me here.
[00:01:20] RS: Where are you calling in from?
[00:01:21] AS: I’m based out of Bangalore. It’s pretty late in the night here.
[00:01:27] RS: Yeah. Thanks for sticking with me here. Is it in the middle of the night there? How late is it?
[00:01:30] AS: Oh, no. It’s not pretty late. It’s about 10:30. We all live in a global world. That’s fine.
[00:01:35] RS: Global world always on, etc. etc. I do appreciate you extending the workday to meet with me here, Aditya. I’ll hopefully make it worth your while sacrificing sleep, but you have a ton of awesome experience. I want to make sure we get into all of it. Before we do, would you mind sharing a little bit about your background? Then we can get into your current role at Informatica.
[00:01:55] AS: Perfect. Yeah. I’ve been around in the technology hiring space for about 21 years now. I start off with my education, done my graduation and post graduate my master’s in human resources. I passed out when you had the Dot-com.com burst in 2000. The economy will look in the other direction, right? We’ve had a couple of years now. I started my career in a search organization executive search, where I put my footing into recruiting.
I did that for a couple of years consulting search and then move on the other side and corporate hiring. I did a large scale hiring with Accenture. Predominantly, heavy on tech in the last five years with Informatica doing a lot of product hiring. Again, core tech.
In my current role like, I said, I head talent acquisition for Informatica in India and technology hiring is a space where I am. I’m sure it’s the most exciting space right now with so many variables running all over and tech workforce, irrespective of the industry where you belong to everybody who wants it. Exciting stuff.
[00:03:02] RS: Now, you’re the second person I’ve had in quick succession who went into this space deliberately after having been educated in it, which is rare. It’s just funny that there were two of us together. You knew from the beginning that you wanted to wind up in this space. Could you share a little bit about your education and what the coursework was like?
[00:03:22] AS: Yeah. So my education was in India. Earlier step was always graduation. Then once you get into that phase, it’s always post-graduation. When I picked up HR, it was not how I designed it. I just got into HR and I liked it, as luck would have it. As I said, when I started working in recruiting, because that was the only job available when it started working in search, and I liked it.
Since then, I’ve been in talent acquisition actually not even done anything, maybe some parts in HR, but I’ve been all of my life in recruiting, because I feel outcrop is very tangible, Rob. So you know what your numbers are and the outcome, what needs to be achieved and you hit the bottom line of the organization. Very exciting, even if you look at the HR space, any new innovation happens in TA first than anywhere else.
[00:04:14] RS: Do you think so? It happens in TA first? I’ve usually heard the opposite.
[00:04:18] AS: No in TA first, because if you look at any of the new tools on the sourcing tools on social media on AI, everything is happening in the talent acquisition space more than anything. You have NLP, which is basically looking at footprint from a CV standpoint. All of that exciting stuff is always in TA.
[00:04:37] RS: What are some of the exciting innovations in the space that you see? I asked because I’m pretty embedded in this world of talent acquisition vendors and new tech companies. It’s easy to be what’s the word? Sardonic maybe, or just a little bit dismissive when you hear like, oh, this is the next big thing or we have AI. But where do you see the real innovation happening?
[00:04:56] AS: You see, Rob. It really depends on what the organization needs are right. If you’re a large-scale organization, then you will try and look at NLP tools, because your incoming traffic is very high from a CV standpoint, so you will look at those tools, which will help you filter out the irrelevant CV so that you have less load on the organization.
When it comes to more product hiring, it’s basically trying to understand where the talent pool is. So you need to have the right tools which will scrape off and tell you where the market intelligence tools are, where the talent lies from a hiring perspective, and then look at investing in those tools. It really depends on the organization from a scale to services to any of the organization.
There is enough innovation in the sourcing side. There is enough innovation on scheduling. Self-scheduling itself is now a big innovation. You don’t need to wait for somebody else, intervene, post offer connect. All of them, they’re seen lot of innovation, but really depends from an organization perspective. Which pace is hurting you most? Can you innovate there from an organization standpoint?
[00:06:00] RS: Got it. Yeah, that makes sense. Self-serve for candidates, I think is really, really important just because you give them a little bit of power. They don’t need to wait for an email and you don’t have to go and figure out all the different availability as a recruiter for the hiring manager, and the interview panel that can be the self-service, I think is really underrated right now.
[00:06:18] AS: Yeah. It’s like you’re booking your movie tickets, and what seat you want to sit on, right? You just click on it and the pass back to you and you said, from a hiring perspective. It gives you enough time and also gives you the power of choosing what you want to do.
[00:06:34] RS: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Well, I did hear part of the reason that I was so excited to speak with you is because you are focused on hiring in India, specifically. Now, Informatica is a global company at this point. They were founded in Redwood City, California, but they’re making a big bet in India. I want to get into the opportunity of India as a source of hire. First, though, could you maybe outline the bet that Informatica is making on India as a center for talent? Then we can get into the end of it all as well.
[00:07:05] AS: Sure. Yeah. Informatica is betting always betting heavily on India. India is, I think, one of the biggest deals for Informatica and the most critical one. Also the other regions also, but from a technology standpoint, we are in the right space, because a lot of the development, product development, hiring, everything happens in India. The talent pool is available, sitting in India.
If you look at the ecosystem in India, all the big players have their offshore development centers or they own India subsidiary now in India, because of the tech talent. I think a lot of countries realized it, Rob during COVID, when the talent could not go from India to other locations that they didn’t have the tech talent, right.
Both that, you suddenly seen most things are opening up from a border standpoint. You see a lot of mobility outside of Indian talent to other countries, because talent wasn’t there from a hiring perspective. That’s also from a focus standpoint. India is very focused on STEM sciences from an education standpoint. As I said, we’ve been brought up in a way of saying that, okay, 15 years of education is a must. Don’t even think about dropping out. It’s a mindset which we carry. I think maybe it’s helping us from a technology standpoint, today, where we are.
[00:08:22] RS: India has been referred to as this sleeping tech giant for a long time. I think to recall it that now would be perhaps pejorative. I feel like it’s fully awake. It’s not just Informatica making big bets on India as a source of talent. Lots of big American companies, as you call it out, are also hiring there. Could you maybe document a little bit about just the technical skill growth that India has experienced and its working population recently?
[00:08:46] RS: Yeah. As I said, even from a startup perspective, I think we are a third largest in the world from a startup standpoint. We produce lot of engineers from a technology perspective. There are lot of, I’m assuming of finishing schools in India prospectively, which is happening extensively.
If you look at the talent pool from a development side, there’s a lot of focus on innovation, which all organizations require from an R&D perspective, which is very extensive in India. If you break down the talent pool in India, the major cities like Bangalore, Hyderabad, Chennai, Delhi, all of them have a lot of talent pool, right?
The good thing about the talent pool in India is there ready to learn at a much faster rate, right? The ability to learn, move on further , and there is a consistent push to upskill yourself at a faster rate. I think Indians normally do that. That’s seen an upsurge of a lot of companies expanding the technology perspective in India.
Also now slowly with huge money-making capacity, there are a lot of capacity from an investment standpoint henceforth, you see a lot of startups now coming in India, because you have lot of investors, Indian investors who are Indians, and who are investing in all of these startup phase. It’s good from that perspective.
I think the only thing is now, India has to also take it out from wherever we have becoming a consumer market, where the consumption is also high, more product angle, right? Because product – if you look at largely, people understand this India technology, the market is consumption, like sales, right?
If you ask any company, they will have a stake in India, sales in US, consumption in the US or in Europe. That’s how it normally works. So slowly, I think that there is a reverse way of now slowly consumption happening in at least in the SAS based companies now in India.
[00:10:48] RS: Where you around Informatica when they made this bet, when they decided, “Okay, we’re going to do a lot of hiring. We’re going to have a tech center and engineering center out of India?”
[00:10:58] AS: Yeah. Informatica has been growing substantially. I’ve been there for last five years. Year on year, we’ve been beating our own hiring numbers. For a product company that’s very high from a headcount perspective, we’ve looked at investment in a lot of core technology areas, because we have a lot of work which is expanding the various horizons for Informatica.
The good part is, it’s not only take slowly, but then the other consulting services with customer support and all of those are slowly also growing now in India. That’s happening finally. Yes, there is a concerted effort to grow tech, because the talent pool sits here. If you look at largely from a workforce planning standpoint, you have a lot of internal mobility, which would also move from India to other countries also, because it’s not only hiring, Rob. It’s also internal mobility, which plays an important part. We would want to stay in the organization for a longer period of time.
[00:11:56] RS: Right, right, of course. The reason I ask is because I want to speak to folks who maybe understand the value of having offshore development centers, but don’t have one yet. What is that like in the early stages of those early meeting as if like, “Hey, we need to be hiring outside of just our backyard and outside of just the major metropolitan areas of the United States.” How do you forge that strategy?
[00:12:19] AS: Yeah. So we’ve done startups. If you look at India as I said, there are a lot of startups in India. So if you’re a US based companies and you’re looking to put not all your eggs in one basket, but also look at tech talent, and India has quite a bit of it. The good part is the basis of education, probably find a lot of engineers doing similar stuff, a lot of people ready to take risks, from a technology standpoint, because I think we have gone away from a mentality of working for only secure jobs, which basically government jobs. People are ready to take risk. If you look at the generation, which is Gen Z, which has walked in, right?
It doesn’t matter where you’re sitting, right? Irrespective of what gets delivered. There are people who might know who have setups in India, large setups in US, but now slowly want to grow in India, a lot of captives now slowly setting up more operations in India, because they’ve seen the talent pool already.
My recommendation to any of the organization which we’re looking at is try your hand with hiring some of the tech talent in India. Get the work done, and then move in with a larger, because it’s not only maybe cost effect, that is not the right word, but I think the talent pool now resides here, at least from a technology standpoint in India.
[00:13:34] RS: Yeah. That makes sense. Hand in hand with moving towards an offshore development center would just be a longer-term view, I think of skill planning, right? Like what are the skills that our workforce is going to need as we grow? Some of those skill sets may already be defined, some may develop, some would be additional hires, some you expect employees to grow into. How do you think about that for Informatica?
[00:13:57] AS: From a skill standpoint, your hiring has to be skill-based. I think we need to get away from role-based positions. The guardrails of education has slowly moving out. I think that we find the person who’s able to deliver, focus on the result, what the individual brings on the table, then the backgroundof the individual, right?
A lot of companies are breaking that shackle on the ability to perform those tasks. Henceforth, you see a lot of organizations, including us, we do a lot of hackathons and codeathons, because we would want the right talent, and irrespective of sometimes even on the education path, from a hiring perspective.
For all of this, Rob. You need to have very strong workforce planning, right? You need to come to know, okay, what’s my five to 10 year vision looking like? What’s the investment am I looking at? What am I going to grow? Do I have the talent pool sitting with me right now? Do I need to invest in my current talent pool or pivot into something new? This is my current skill and you know technologies template is very low, right? Today it is QA is narrative as that. Then you have DevOps, some of these areas which are moving in. Do we invest in people now or should we hire from campus, train them and then groom them up from a talent perspective?
Are we looking at the right cities where the talent pool likes? The good thing about COVID, at least now, at least people know that remotely things can be done. I think so that’s a good part, right? At least for some of those roads.
What are the organization needs? Where are you versus your supply to the demand perspective? All of these parts play a huge part from a diverting standpoint, because you just can’t do have a one year look. You need to have a 10 year look of saying that my investment in these regions is because of this, and this is what will pivot and some of the investment needs to be now.
Some of the investments need to come in future. Some of the hiring needs to be hiring people before the curve, because end of the curve, everybody’s having similar talent, and you’re looking at the same tool. So slowly, some of hiring them before the curve and maybe breaking some of those barriers of not looking at only education or big criteria from a gating perspective is an important part.
[00:16:15] RS: It seems like the further you go out, the less accurate you can be. For example, what are the tech skills someone will need 10 years from now? Well, that coding language may not have been invented yet, right? Or that skill set may not really exist? How far can you go out? Or is it important to focus on other skills besides technical ones?
[00:16:33] AS: Yeah. So coding is a good example now, but nowadays, you have something called low code, no code, where you don’t need to know even coding, right? You just pick and drop and get things done delivered right after a period of time. But if you look at the software aspect, which is very important from a hiring perspective, some of the key skills, and I speak in a lot of webinars or other places on workforce of the future, one of the key skills, soft skills, which I speak to some of these colleges is, I think, your ability to solve complex problems, because no problem will be similar in nature. If it is similar in nature, you get automated, as simple as that.
Your ability to do critical thinking plays an important part as an individual. People management, people management from a very different angle. Rob just thnk, if you can manage people remotely, physically, other countries are the deal, understanding all of that plays a huge important part. Emotional intelligence, empathy towards individual plays an important part. The service orientation, it’s more of anticipating your client before they even get into the issue of saying that, “Hey, you might get into it.” So getting into those situations, your ability to negotiate, get things done, cognitive flexibility, things will seem through chaos and ability to do multiple things at the same time plays an important part.
I was reading an article now there’s something called T alphabet T, T-shape Learner, which basically is sale value in an SME in one particular area. You need to understand you’re collaborating other areas. Like example for me. I’ve been in talent acquisition, but I still need to have good understanding how does a learning development team works, and how does HR business partner works, or how does performance management compensation team works, because there will be time where I’ll be leading these teams in an agile way. I need to understand.
In short, it should not be in SME. You can put your blinkers on and work many times you move forward. I feel some of these soft skills play an important part from an individual standpoint. A lot of people, they say that during HR interview, I don’t understand the kind of questions these people are asking. Do other skills what they are asking indirectly trying to assess you at that skills.
[00:18:49] RS: The T-shaped Learning, your understanding of HR, for example, would be like the stem of the T.
[00:18:56] AS: Yeah.
[00:18:57] RS: Then the top flat part of the T. That’s your understanding of everything else, right?
[00:19:01] AS: Yeah, your paddling skills, because you might be asked to lead function. You can come around and say, “Hey, I have only done T. I don’t understand learning at all.” I mean, at least we need to have a broader understanding, because they’ll be agile things as we move forward to manage these things.
[00:19:16] RS: I can’t remember who quipped this, anytime there’s a sufficiently witty quote who I can’t remember, I just attributed it to Oscar Wilde, but the quote is, “You should try to know everything about something and something about everything.”
[00:19:30] AS: Yeah. I completely agree with you.
[00:19:34] RS: What’s interesting, when you were rattling off those soft skills, that wasn’t the way I would normally think of soft skills. When I hear soft skills, I think, okay, you are personable in meetings or you can forge relationships with multiple areas in the business, right? You have this ability to make other people in the organization care about your function, right? Those were probably all examples, but the ones you gave about adaptability, about like, can you learn? Can you problem solve? Those are perhaps more important, than how many years of Python you have, particularly with startups. Look, I think you really need to have tech skills if you’re going to be in medicine, right? If you’re going to be in some kind of aerospace engineering, where the stakes of failure are fantastically high.
When you’re in a situation where you can iterate or you can afford to learn and make mistakes, and take time to upskill as you’re learning that, just in time learning they call it. That feels way more valuable than what you’ve done before, because as you said, the tech skills are always changing. Having learned them is more important than what you learned, I guess, is what I’m trying to say. When I think about my early career, and how much of it was predicated upon my ability to learn new tools, and they were basically just web apps, right? Like, “Hey, Rob. Can you learn Salesforce? Can you learn HubSpot? Can you learn Photoshop? Can you learn Excel?”
Things that I was never really taught in school, but I’ve been using web apps, and websites, and web builders, and computers my whole life. I had the ability to do that. It wasn’t because of a class I took, or any technical thing I had demonstrated that would prove how good I would be at putting together using logic to make nurturing campaigns in HubSpot, right? That’s such a nuanced challenge that you only really experienced in a very particular tech startup.
At the same time, while my success of that role was predicated on my ability to do that, and still is, in some ways, I’ve never been screened on that ever, right? I don’t think anyone ever was like, “So, Rob. Let me give you a unique problem, and how would you go about solving it?”
When someone asked me that they’re not even looking for the solution, they’re looking to be like, “Okay, what questions does, Rob asked? What clarifying questions? What other people does you think about looping? What research does he want to do?” I feel like maybe we got close with those, how many ping pong balls fit in an empty 747? Like those kinds of interview questions. They’re more of like puzzles, but then there’s research. I think out of Google that said, those questions aren’t really indicative of future success that like the whole, why is a manhole cover circular, that they mainly serve to make the interviewer feel smart, rather than actually assess something. In your experience, how would one screen for those soft skills like you rattled off?
[00:22:10] AS: Yeah. I think you need to give them situations. You need to ask them examples of complex problems. Complex problem solving is very simple. You basically ask them, “What’s the situation have you been in where you have multiple issues? How did you go ahead and tackle? Give me an example. Talking about that, have you managed – people management? Have you managed teams? How do you manage interpersonal relationships with individuals? How do you manage someone who’s not based out of India? How do you manage those teams up? Have you worked in a matrix organization? Do you understand?” There are leading questions where you can ask and understand where the psyche is of the individuals.
The flip side to all of this is, sometimes the people never got that opportunity to do it. All in all, if you see that the person is ready to learn, and you’re ready to take the intelligent punt on hiring an individual, please go ahead and do that. Because the flip side of hiring someone who is able to answer everything else is, there nothing new for that individual to learn, right? That person will be a passenger in your bus, so you need someone who’s maybe 60, 65% fit, and you grow them with the organization as you move forward from an understanding perspective.
Asking them situational questions or saying, “Have you been in these kinds of situations? If you’ve not, what are the other situations where you’ve been?” So that they’re able to come out and give you examples, and then you can ratify of saying that, okay, this makes sense, or give them a problem or saying that, if I give you this problem, if that person has not been in that situation and say, I give you this problem and how would you solve it? If you have, how would you get into this situation? Then look at the answer and you will get some amount of ability to assess people.
[00:23:50] RS: Do you think those soft skills can be learned?
[00:23:53] AS: Yes. You can learn them, but it takes a lot of time. You need to be very predictive, because after a period of time yourself comes out, so you need to understand, but it needs to be inertly proportional to what you’re trying to look at.
Henceforth, if you look at a lot of companies, they do fitment from a culture standpoint, right? They look at, does this person fit into the culture of the organization? Does this person fit into the culture of the team, right, from a team perspective and see. End of the day, all of us have our own North Pole which we believe, the direction we move as individuals. And then you slowly look at that individual and see whether this person can be groomed into some of those things, cannot be groomed into those things. If it’s a complete reverse, do drop that person out of the interview sessions much earlier in advance, because the wrong hire will have more chaos than the right hire.
[00:24:47] RS: Yeah. Yeah, of course. I’m anticipating this would have some pushback from hiring managers. If you were to say we’re going to lead with this soft skill-based assessment to make sure they have the ability to be adaptable and learn. That they would say something like, “Okay. Fine, but” They also have to have X years’ experience. They also have to have some knowledge what we’re already doing here or they’re not going to work out. Does that happen?
[00:25:10] AS: It does. The thing about some of, at least on technology side, is trainable skills. If the person has the base skills can be trained into those skills by doing some of these courses, which you and I spoke about, those short term courses, why not hire those individuals? Because A, you’re investing time in that individual. The individual knows that organization is investing time in them. They will stick around in the organization. Yes, the intelligent font is to work with the hiring manager and you need to show them the longevity of those individuals. Because if you ask any hiring manager, they want a finished product, they don’t want to spend time training somebody. They would want that person to hit running before even getting the laptop, but we need to understand that we need to invest in our talent. If we don’t, the individual won’t be there. Then as I said, the individual will be a passenger moving on to another organization after a year or so.
[00:26:06] RS: Yeah, of course. I think you’re absolutely right, that hiring managers typically hired to solve a problem they have today. How do you go about flipping that mentality?
[00:26:15] AS: Yeah. So it’s a long term drawn process, because I’ll give you an example. We had to hire someone who has a skill which is very difficult to find. We found someone, Rob. The only thing we knew about this person, he will not stick around for a longer period of time. What we did is we hired this person. We built a team around this person. This person still left after a year, but we didn’t require that person after a period of time, because we had already built people around him or her, and they would shadow this person.
Now the product is in steady state. Some of those risks you need to take, but then there needs to be a plan ABC next to it of saying that, okay, person, this is what’s your next plan from a hiring perspective. There are some things which will work and something which will not work, that’s while hiring. So, it works both ways, but you need to have some plan. We always knew this individual will not stay with us for a long time. It’s a known unknown deal, but then how are you progressing further as an organization plays an important part.
[00:27:19] RS: In that example, how did you know that person wasn’t long for the company?
[00:27:22] AS: Because of historical background, because this person was staying in organizations for only one, one and a half years, background of that individual. That person always wanted to do only development, but when the project moved to a regular, steady state, this person was just not interested. He was just attuned in a way of you not only doing development work. While we had other work for that individual, but this person went away. Funny part is, as we speak, therefore, yesterday, that person left that company also moving on to another company. There are companies who are hiring these individuals, but I think the people also understanding.
[00:27:59] RS: Right, right. They were a zero-to-one kind of person, rather than a one-to-two kind of person.
[00:28:03] AS: Yeah.
[00:28:03] RS: Yeah, it makes sense. They’re everywhere. Well, Aditya, we are creeping up on optimal podcast length here. Before I let you go. I would just love to hear some advice from you to the folks out there in podcast land, for people who are early to mid in their career who want to climb up the recruiting hierarchy a little bit. What advice would you give for people who are forging a career in the space?
[00:28:23] AS: Recruiting is an exciting space. If you like numbers, this is the best place to be in. You hit the bottom line of the organization, so you know your tangible outcomes. The good thing is you work very closely with the stakeholders. There is a lot to learn – as I said, when we started our conversation, there are a lot of innovations happening in this space and if you look at even talent acquisition space, there’s a lot of movement on a very different angle.
Candidate experience is now a huge thing as we move forward, right? Understanding the talent landscape post-COVID, and I’m sure, Rob, your outlook towards what you were maybe pre-COVID to what it is today would have changed itself.
You can imagine we were sitting on a cast wheel, like what we call the dotcom burst at that period of time. We’ve moved away from another cast. Gen Z has just walked in as a new workforce and exciting space. If you like exciting stuff, if you want to impact the bottom line of the organization, you want to have tangible outcomes. You work very closely with business and you grow very well in the organization.
From here, you can do anything else which you want to do. If you don’t like the space, there are a lot of other things within HR or even within business which you can do, because a lot of recruiting guys are very smart sales guys. There’s a lot of cross cultural shift which you can do as individuals.
[00:29:46] RS: Got it. Aditya, this has been great chatting with you today. Thank you so much for being here.
[00:29:49] AS: Thank you.
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