beckymccullough

HubSpot’s Director of Recruiting Becky McCullough

Becky McCulloughDirector of Recruiting

Becky discusses how to manage internal candidate mobility in terms of bias and candidate experience, why “slate interviewing” is better than “iterative interviewing”, and what her new Recruiting Ops team is responsible for. Rob has a lukewarm take on coconuts.

Episode Transcript

00:00 Rob Stevenson: Hello, there, in Podcast Land, you wonderful, little rabble of recruiting goblins. Welcome back to another classic installment of your favorite recruiting podcast. Once again, I am Rob Stevenson here, at the helm and I cannot wait to get going on another recruiting journey. I’m ready to go here. Rearing to go, even. I got my microphone, I got my notes, I got my can of coconut juice. The fact that it’s in a can is really rustling my jimmies at this moment. Why, Rob? I’ll tell you. Because to get it in this can, it had to be removed from its pre-existing nature made can, its fully contained, coconut shell can. It was already in a can, you guys. It was ready to go. Just give me some Capri Sun straw stabby situation, and we’re good to go. At any rate, no one cares about your coconut opinions, Rob. Give us the goods. Give us the sweet talent acquisition content goods.

00:55 RS: Coconuts aside, I do have a great episode for all of you all today. Joining me is the fabulously intelligent and articulate Director of Recruiting for HubSpot, Becky McCullough. The talent team at HubSpot is under Becky’s direction, working on all kinds of fascinating things. They’ve just ramped up a recruiting ops team which focuses on tabulating metrics and creating documentation to keep the engine fine-tuned and running at full capacity. HubSpot also employs a method Becky refers to as slate interviewing, which was new to me. And it basically means, you move candidates through the funnel in cohorts which insures repeatable equal candidate experience and helps to eliminate bias, create predictable pipeline, all those things that over time mean you have a more reliable process. We cover a ton of ground in this episode. Without further poppycock or hullabaloo, I give you Becky McCullough, HubSpot’s own Director of Recruitment.

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02:33 RS: Becky McCullough, welcome to the podcast.

02:35 Becky McCullough: Thank you so much for having me, Rob. It’s great to be here.

02:37 RS: Cool, how are you?

02:38 BM: I’m doing well, thanks. The weather in Boston is not that nice right now but we’ve had a pretty good summer, so can’t complain.

02:45 RS: It’s terrible here, too. There’s nothing colder than a summer in San Francisco, I’m telling you. It’s foggy and nasty. But here we are, in our makeshift recording studios. Although, mine’s a makeshift recording studio. I’m certain over at HubSpot, you have a much better set up, right?

03:00 BM: I am impressed by the size of the microphone in front of me.

03:02 RS: [chuckle]

03:02 BM: I’ll just say that. [chuckle]

03:04 RS: Well, also huge shoutout to Matt over at HubSpot who is helping out with this recording. It makes a huge difference. Probably not that important to most of our listeners, but it makes me happy. I’m grateful.

03:14 BM: Yeah, we’re lucky to have Matt here. Thanks to him.

03:16 RS: Absolutely. At some point here, Becky, we should probably talk about recruitment, right?

03:20 BM: It might be a good idea.

03:21 RS: Yeah, we’re gonna have to start the show here at some point. What are you working on right now at HubSpot? What’s top-of-mind for you?

03:27 BM: It’s an exciting time at HubSpot, Rob. We are continuing to grow tremendously. We are launching new products, we’re opening up in new offices. And as you can imagine, there’s a huge recruiting challenge associated with all of those things, both when it comes to looking for new types of talent to help our team grow and scale, but also where we find that talent. And so, my team is really focused on how to do that at the right velocity to meet the needs of our business, but also doing it in a way that is consistent, that’s methodical, that is data-driven. And frankly, it’s really inclusive to allow us to get to the best, most diverse candidate pool out there.

04:10 RS: That’s a tall order.

04:11 BM: It is. No small things happen here at HubSpot.

04:14 RS: Right, right. In terms of… When we say velocity, is that just in terms of keeping up with hiring manager needs, or what does that look like?

04:21 BM: Yeah, it’s keeping up with the business needs. We are investing heavily in our growth. And so, there is a huge headcount ask on that. And so, we’re continuing to add a lot of new headcount across all of the areas of the business, particularly in sales, in customer success, in product and engineering. But also, just hiring different types of people. For example, as we embark on new iterations of our product, how does that change the type of engineer that we’re looking for? As we tap into new markets, how does that change the type of salesperson that we’re hiring for? And so, my team, while we are really focused on scaling and developing a recruiting engine, that engine is never static. We need to constantly be iterating with what the business is asking for and incorporating that into our recruiting strategy.

05:10 RS: Right, so as the company grows, it’s not the same as like, okay, we have this many more reqs. Fire up that old account manager job description we had going before. There’s a nuance to the growing business, that you have to be hip to. Does that come down from you? Are you meeting with the stakeholders across the business to learn the specifics of these new and changing roles?

05:34 BM: Yeah, a lot of the overarching mission and the overarching strategy is certainly top-down, but frankly, as our team in recruiting gets bigger, we are really focused on empowering our frontline recruiters to have those conversations with their hiring teams and develop those relationships in a meaningful, yet scalable way. And so, the balance that we’re striking is how do we create operational consistency across the board? We have a playbook that we roll out to all of our hiring teams, but also train our recruiters on everything from business context to how to have tough conversations, to, how to creatively brainstorm new markets to tap into with regards to talent, so that our recruiters can take that playbook and then go run with it with their hiring teams. Otherwise, we run the risk of single points of failure or slowing down. And so, the operations around our recruiting team, having that be consistent is really important, and it frankly enables our recruiters to do their jobs better, and partner with their hiring teams better.

06:34 RS: When you say tough conversations, what are examples of those?

06:38 BM: I think we are empowering our recruiters to always push their hiring managers to think about what they’re actually solving for. Similarly to the way that our recruiting model operates, where we’re not just doing the same thing over and over again, are our hiring managers looking for the same thing in each subsequent hire that they’re making? How do they think about the team that they were trying to build, and how each subsequent hire will help make that team that much better? And so, that requires iterating on the profile that you’re looking for, it requires iterating on a process, and it requires iterating on the candidate experience as well.

07:14 RS: That’s really hard, because especially if you’re, maybe, a more junior recruiter and you’re meeting with a hiring manager, who’s director of a department, or head of a team. You’re basically coaching them and expecting them not to be order takers, to push back, as you said, and help them be strategic. How do you teach recruiters to do that?

07:36 BM: Yeah, it’s a long road. And we are by no means throwing the most junior recruiter out into the open ocean on this. We wanna make sure they have the support system that they need. One area of our team that’s been hugely beneficial to our recruiters, in just giving them what they need to play that more strategic partnership role has been the establishment of our Recruiting Operations Team within our broader org. And that team is focused on a couple of different things. One is training and onboarding recruiters. We wanna make sure that every recruiter who joins HubSpot, no matter how many years of experience they had previously, they have a solid foundation that’s consistent across the board. And then, as we roll out everything from new best practices in our process to new changes from a legal or procedural perspective, or even new changes within our business, we are equipping our recruiters with that knowledge, we’re training them on those changes so that they have a better knowledge base to go and do their jobs. Another part of the recruiting operations space that’s been really impactful to our team is the data that we have access to on our candidates, on our talent pipeline, which our recruiters can then analyze and find some really interesting insights that help them have better conversations with their hiring managers and make better decisions around how they go and recruit.

09:01 RS: What kind of roles make up the recruiting ops team?

09:03 BM: Yeah, so there are a couple of key areas. One is the core data and analysis that I mentioned. We have some tremendous analysts within our team that are really focused on building dashboards, helping to visualize our data, data quality is a big focus for us. Another area is the training and recruiter development that I mentioned. That function is focused both internally on our own team, but also how to train the business to be better recruiters and better interviewers. We have interviewer training, we have resources available to our hiring managers and interviewers on how to run a great process, how to be inclusive at every step of the process, and that role is really critical.

09:50 BM: And then, the other area within recruiting operations that’s important is internal mobility. HubSpot has a tremendous culture of growth and development. And if you look around our organization, the most recent data point I pulled was, almost 50% of HubSpotters today are not in the role they joined the company in. And that’s because we have such a focus on growth and development, and there are so many opportunities to grow, either within your role, within your broader department or across department, and across region. And so, because of that, we need to make sure that we are getting the internal candidate experience, as well as we’re getting the external candidate experience.

10:31 RS: Okay, that’s a huge number, by the way, that you have so much mobility and that 50% are doing other jobs, ’cause that’s an important part of retention, I think, that people overlook. Usually, when people think retention, they think, “Well, can we give this person more projects that align with what they’re interested on? Can we pay them more?” But in terms of just putting them into a different function that they would be successful at, and that they would be better suited to, is probably the best retention plan, I’d imagine. What do you mean by internal candidate experience? How is that different than external?

11:03 BM: Yeah, it’s a fine line, on your first point. I think we wanna make sure that we give people plenty of opportunity to grow within the role that they’re in, and growth can happen in a lot of different ways outside of just a role change. That said, there are certain areas of the business, our customer support organization is a great one, where it’s a great entry point into HubSpot, and you learn such a cross-section of skills that tee you up for different areas of the organization like product or marketing or sales, even. I think finding that tension is really important.

11:40 BM: To answer your question on what does internal candidate experience mean, we wanna make sure that we create an experience for our internal candidates. It’s a couple of things, one that’s consistent. One thing you find with internal candidates, and I’m sure other companies out there who are listening can attest to this, is when you deal with internal candidates, there’s never a consistent process a lot of the times. Perhaps they reach out directly to the hiring manager, maybe they reach out to a recruiter or maybe they reply through your internal job board. What we’re really focused on is creating that consistent experience. It doesn’t become a who-you-know game, or an unfair advantage based on what department you’re coming from. We’re really leveling the playing field in that regard.

12:22 BM: The other thing that’s really important is making sure that our candidates internally have as much feedback throughout the process, as our external candidates do. And that’s something that we’re really proud of in our external candidate experience. The difference is, because our internal candidate is a HubSpotter, that’s a conversation that happens with the recruiter, the hiring manager for the new role, and the person, the internal candidate’s current manager, because if they don’t get the role that they’re interviewing for, it’s incumbent on the current manager to ensure that there’s a great plan to set them up for success in the future, whether they stay in their role, or move into another role, however many months down the line. And so, ultimately, when we think about internal candidates, I certainly care about creating a great experience for the people who end up moving into new roles at HubSpot. But more importantly, I care about the people who don’t get those jobs, because if they don’t have a great experience, they’re an attrition risk. And so, if we’re able to cut down the attrition risk of people who didn’t get a job in an internal process by a couple of percentage points, that saves real dollars for the business and saves real time for my team in the long run, when they think about that new hiring outside of the org.

13:28 RS: Yeah, that’s an interesting ancillary benefit to having people apply to roles internally, ’cause even if you do have really great candidate experience, if they don’t get the role, does the fact that they applied for a different job within HubSpot, assume that they’re unhappy with their current role, or that they could be much happier. And so, even if you do everything you can on the recruiting side, is this still an opportunity for their initial hiring manager or the one in the job that they had before they applied for this other role?

14:00 BM: Yeah.

14:00 RS: Is it on them to be like, “This person may not be happy. What can I do to change this?”

14:04 BM: Yeah, and I think that the blanket answer is, it depends. Are there people who are unhappy in their role, but love HubSpot? Absolutely. Are there people who are loving HubSpot, loving their role, but recognizing that they’re ready for a new challenge? Absolutely. And I think regardless of the case, there’s a huge dependency on the manager and on, frankly, our broader people team, to make sure that we are identifying opportunities for those people to gain new skills, to get exposure to new areas of the business, and define what they love about being at HubSpot. And if that means moving into a new role, great. Let’s have that conversation. But it also could mean taking on a new project. One of the things that’s fantastic about HubSpot is we offer tuition reimbursement to our employees, an annual benefit. Maybe it means taking a class outside of their day-to-day work life. And so, what we’re really focusing on is thinking about it from all angles, working cross-functionally within recruiting, the manager, the HR business partner, to have a full picture of our employees and being able to have some really great interventions that ultimately, hopefully contribute to employee retention over time.

15:16 RS: Yeah, yeah. Of course, makes sense. When you think about evaluating internal candidates verse external, is there a risk of bias there, because this internal candidate might know the interview panel. As is, because you know them, they’re less of a risk to bring on. You know their work style. Is there a possibility that there could be a bias towards hiring that person, even in the event that external candidate might be better qualified?

15:47 BM: I don’t think anyone would argue that bias is present, no matter what type of candidate you’re dealing with, what type of circumstance. And so, I certainly think there is the addition of those extra data points because someone is an employee, is a factor to consider. I think it’s on us as a recruiting team to create a process that tries to normalize that as much as possible. That means being super thoughtful about the job description and what skills and competencies and experiences we’re looking for in an ideal candidate. And then, systematically testing on those throughout the interview process. We spent a lot of time upfront building out inter-review plans, having kick off meetings with our hiring teams, debriefing on candidates. And doing that and really focusing on skills and attributes, versus a broader, more qualitative sentiment, is what helpfully pulls the bias out of that process and allows you to compare internal candidates and external candidates equally.

16:44 BM: One thing that we have been really focused on doing, that has been shown to mitigate bias, is trying to interview candidates in batches or slates. Slate interviewing is a popular thing these days. And what it essentially means is, rather than launching a role, and maybe you get a good candidate, and let’s interview them and make a decision on whether or not we wanna move them forward in the process, and then we wait a couple of weeks, and then we interview another candidate. Let’s think about each stage of the process as a slate. Let’s spend a few weeks up front looking at all the possible candidates for a role, whether they apply directly to you, whether they’re internal, whether you source them as a recruiter, and maybe you get an initial slate of 20 candidates. Then, let’s evaluate them in aggregate, in batch, and then make a decision on what subset of those is sufficient enough, qualified enough to advance to the next round. Then you do the same thing for the next stage in your interview process, and the important piece is you evaluate candidates in aggregate, so that you’re leveling the playing field across the board.

17:44 RS: Right, that makes sense. I had never heard it called slate interviewing before, but would the alternative be, you get people that come in and they go through the process at their own speed, and then, maybe someone’s a little further on in the process, so you’re feeling bullish about them, you like their chances for getting the job. Maybe now you’re not gonna be as excited to work with the other people in the pipeline or you’re not gonna go take a phone screen, if someone’s at the end of the process. Is that the risk? And I’m sure recruiters have been burned by that.

18:18 BM: That’s exactly right, Rob. And I think there’s a misconception that, I like to call it the iterative process where you go, candidate after candidate. There’s this misconception that that allows you to move more quickly, because let’s just get candidates in as soon as they’re ready. The reality is, not only do you see more bias, recency bias, for example, in the process, but you’re always hinging the success or failure of your search on one candidate.

18:46 BM: What you find with slate interviewing, as well, it may take some more time up front. If you’re explicit with your candidates about what you’re doing, explain to them that, “Hey, this is the timeline that we’re going to follow and I recognize this may not align with your timeline, but we hope you’ll be along with us for the ride.” One, your candidates are gonna respect that because they’re gonna understand your commitment to creating an inclusive process, but ultimately, you’re not gonna be riding one horse to the tape, to use the metaphor. You’re gonna be ensuring that you are looking at your candidates in pools. And what we find is that ultimately, the overall process ends up going a lot quicker, even if it takes a little bit longer upfront, to really build that pool of candidates initially.

19:26 RS: Well, HubSpot Doesn’t Ride One Horse to the Tape is gonna be the episode title, I think.

[laughter]

19:31 RS: Thank you for that.

19:32 BM: You’re welcome.

19:33 RS: Makes my life a little easier. How do you communicate that on the candidate side? Because if you’re a candidate and you’re hot to trot with HubSpot and you had the phone screen, and it went really well, and you’re like, “Alright. When do I get to come on site?” But on the inner side, the recruiter is like, “Well, we have this slate interviewing. We need to have another five, six phone screens. We need to keep this cohort moving.” How do you communicate that to the candidate, while still making them feel valued?

20:01 BM: Yeah, to be honest, the candidate who doesn’t understand the importance of the discipline around our process is probably not someone who we want to have at HubSpot. We are incredibly committed to creating an inclusive process at every stage of the funnel. And so, it ultimately comes down to just being explicit up front, explaining why we care about a consistent experience, we care about ensuring that we make the best decision, both for the candidate and for the hiring team. And we also are explicit about when we expect timing to pan out. And so, one thing that teams have to be super comfortable with, is that it may mean you lose a candidate for reasons outside of our control. Maybe they are held to a deadline, either for personal reasons, maybe they have another offer and they’re not able to align with our timeline. We have to be comfortable with that because at the end of the day, we care about the greater good of our process.

21:00 BM: I think the best thing we can do, and we’ve been doing this with candidates, is be super transparent upfront and ensure that even if there’s a few weeks of lag between their first touch point with us and the next stage of the interview process, you can still be checking in with them, you can still be offering them resources to help them prepare for their interview, you can still be aligning on their expectations and checking in on their motivations. It doesn’t mean you have to give candidates radio silence for a few weeks while you catch everyone up. It just means that you’re being more transparent about the steps in which they’re going to be evaluated.

21:33 RS: Right. Becky, you read my mind and you answer the questions I have before I ask them, which is so wonderful. I have seen this a million times. And I’m sure you have, too. A case where you get a candidate you really like, and then, you have that check-up, like, “Are you talking to other companies? Where are you in process?” And that question, where are you in process, is basically like, “Do we need to streamline you?” If we don’t push you through the process, are we gonna miss out on you because you’re already at the offer stage with two other companies? And so, your advice in that scenario would be to let that person go?

22:09 BM: I think you have to give the candidate a choice. You explain to them what your process is, you explain that you need to stay aligned to a certain timeline. And I think that the recruiters listening are gonna hate this, but it’s usually pretty feasible to get a couple of days extension on an offer. If someone really wants you, they’re gonna let you take the time to make the right decision. And I would encourage candidates to be equally as transparent and say to the company that they have an offer with, “Hey, look, I’m interviewing with another company, I want to see this through before I make a decision. I hope you can respect that.” I know we get that all the time with candidates and we are more than happy to oblige, because we want them to make the best decision for them. We don’t want them to feel pressured in joining HubSpot, and we’d expect that any other company would do the same thing.

22:54 RS: Yes, and that might even be an opportunity to go on the attack with the candidate and be like, “We’re excited about you. We wanna see this through, but we’re committed to this timeline. If you are excited, too, you might consider asking, you’re consider telling this to the other companies you’re talking to that, “Hey, I want to evaluate this offer on my own timeline.”

23:13 BM: Yeah, I think that’s exactly right. Ultimately, our recruiters spend a lot of time coaching candidates on how to handle competitive offers and I do think there are scenarios where a candidate has a hard and fast offer and the other company wants to play hard ball and then it’s a choice. Do they want to say, “Okay, HubSpot, sorry, I’m gonna go with this other company,” which happens. Or are they going to turn down that other offer, because they wanna see our process through. Both of those scenarios have happened and everything in between, and that’s okay. We ultimately wanna make the candidate feel like they’re making the right decision for them, and so, we’re not gonna judge them for however they decide to handle a situation. It’s on us to give them everything they need, so that we’re not a reason for them to feel badly about making that decision, whatever it is.

23:57 RS: Right, right, like they were pressured into it in one way or another.

24:01 BM: Exactly, exactly.

24:02 RS: It seems like the recruiting ops team touches this issue, as it touches almost everything. It seems like it has its fingers in a lot of different talent acquisition pies.

24:13 BM: Yeah, I can’t even tell you the number of times, since we brought the person on board our team who manages this function within recruiting operations, where we’ve said, “We need a training for that or we need some documentation for that or we need a playbook for that.” I think one thing we’re recognizing is, as a team grows and scales, especially as quickly as our recruiting team has, how much variability exists and how, when you may have trained your team on something, even as recently as six or nine months ago, and how it’s totally stale, if you don’t have the appropriate documentation, or maybe it’s a recording of a training or some way to reinforce it, because things are growing and changing so quickly.

24:56 RS: Right. Is that a… Not prescriptive approach, a reactive approach that recruiting ops takes. You can render these problems, and say like, “Okay, this is an opportunity for recruiting ops to build a process here or to measure something to iterate.”

25:13 BM: Yeah, I think it’s a little bit of both. There are certainly some areas where we are reacting, whether it’s a pain point that our team is feeling or a skills gap that exists within our team, where we say, “Alright. We gotta get ahead of… We gotta catch up to this, let’s put together a training and make sure our team is all on the same page.” I think subsequently, we’re also spending some time really dissecting what best in class looks like, and putting together a bit of a wish list of what we would love our recruiters to have resources and access to. It’s a longer horizon, and we’re certainly working to prioritize that, but I think the combination of, “Hey, what do we need to fix today?” to from, “What do we need to work on tomorrow?” is ultimately getting us to a really good place in terms of our teams training and resource development.

26:01 RS: Right, right, of course. And I’m sure as you got out a little further into the team’s lifetime, it became clear, a million more things that you needed them for. At the beginning though, what were the first couple of things where you’re like, alright, once we have this team in place, ABC, these are the priority things that you need to get checked off?

26:18 BM: Yeah. A lot of the work that our team is doing right now is very related to creating an inclusive process at every step. I’ve mentioned this a couple of times, but what we really wanna make sure that we’re doing is creating a process where every candidate feels like they are set up for success. And I think that starts at the very beginning. Some of the things that we are working on right now, are consistent job descriptions. It starts from the very beginning. And making sure that we have a consistent formula for creating job descriptions, we are working with hiring managers in the same way to be able to build a job description that’s really authentic and reflective of the work that someone would be doing and the impact they would have. It also means making sure that our job descriptions are not biased or excluding a particular group or level of experience.

27:14 BM: There’s some tremendous data out there that talks about the gender gap in job descriptions, and at a rough estimate, it’s something like women only apply to a job description if they meet 100% of the criteria listed on the job description. Men apply if they meet 60%. And so, if you’re over-architecting a job description, you’re potentially screening out or causing a really big piece of your candidate pool to self-select out of your process, which doesn’t solve for your company’s diversity goals. And so, that’s one example of something that we’re equipping both recruiters and hiring managers with, so that they have a really good knowledge-base there. Another thing is around how we communicate with candidates and the resources that we share with them at every stage of the process, so that they feel like they have access to all the information they need on HubSpot, to be able to make a good decision and go into the process being the best candidate that they can be.

28:09 RS: That process of preventing people from self-selecting out of a job application, does that just look like cutting down your job description and just being very critical of what’s on there and asking, is this really a need-to-have? How important are these individual things? How do you make sure that you still can represent all the requirements of the job without overdoing it, and causing people to think that they’re not qualified?

28:38 BM: It’s a rigorous exercise. I’m not going to lie. But what it ultimately comes down to is making sure you’re really focused on what skills and competencies you are looking for in someone to join your team in whatever role, versus using some other filter that’s frankly, pretty arbitrary. I’ll give you an example. We recently launched a search for a Director of Diversity Inclusion and Belonging at HubSpot. It’s the first time we’ve ever had this role. We’re super excited and proud to be embarking on this next journey, and we are looking for someone who has a proven track record building D&I programs in an environment that’s ideally of a similar scale and scope and pace as HubSpot. We do not have any required years of experience for that role. And that was really deliberate because we recognize that you don’t have to have five years of experience in D&I or eight years of experience in D&I to be an impactful, successful D&I leader. You need to be a successful and impactful D&I leader because you’ve built programs and meaningfully got them off the ground, and meaningfully seeing the needle move in your organization. And so, we deliberately took that year requirement out of our job description, and that allowed us to then instead focus on, really, the impact and the skills that we’re looking for. Now, it changes the way we screen at the top of the funnel, but it ultimately creates a more objective, more inclusive process.

30:03 RS: Yes. Now that you say that, it strikes me that the years of experience qualifier seems arbitrary almost across the board. It seems like it’s a cop out to be like, “Well, we’ll put five years experience on here because we assume that people, if they’ve been working in this function for five years, that they’re good.” Using a job I’m familiar with, like, “Alright, we want a content marketer with 5-8 year experience.” But what if I gave you someone with two years experience, who had taken a blog from zero to 20,000 views a month and who had executed webinars and who had done really awesome recruiting podcasts, or something like that, right?

30:39 BM: Yeah.

30:39 RS: Would you still want to meet with that person? And the hiring manager’s gonna say, “Yes,” I think, okay, well then, this is not a need-to-have. And so, I guess that’s the approach you can take to anything on a job description that could be limiting to your applicants. It’s like, take an example and say to the hiring manager, “If I brought you someone who didn’t have this, but they had this other stuff over here, would you say wanna see them?” And if the answer, that’s, yes, then take that thing off the job description.

31:03 RS: Right. And I think that it depends on the role. I think, for example, sales. It could be critical to have someone in a role or be looking for candidates who have at least one year of closing experience, because of their product cycle and their selling cycle, having a year’s worth of data under your belt, of hitting quota or whatever it might be, is an indicator of success in this role. You think about other non-SaaS businesses where the selling cycle is a lot longer, maybe you need two or three years in a closing role because that’s how you show how you build up your book of business. There are certainly roles where years of experience is important, but I do agree with you that the majority of the time, it is a cop out. And to your point, it’s really about making sure you’re getting to that next layer of what you’re actually testing for and what’s actually important. And are you able to get to those skills and assess those skills in a way, in your interview process that isn’t just related to number of years or tenure in role?

32:04 BM: Becky, I feel like I could keep picking your brain. You’re so knowledgeable and articulate. This has been really, really fascinating. But we’re creeping up on optimal podcast length here. [chuckle] I have to cut you off, unfortunately. There’s so much more I wish we could have talked about, but that just means you have to come in for round two, at some point.

32:20 RS: Absolutely. Happy to. I always enjoy chatting with you, Rob. And this is an exciting time in the world of talent. I think the broader people in HR and recruiting space has… Five or 10 years ago, was pretty overlooked, and viewed as pretty reactive, and it’s very cool to see how sophisticated talent teams are getting, from the recruiting side to the talent management side and retention. And so, it’s a fun time to be in recruiting, for sure.

32:46 RS: Absolutely, definitely a fun time to be in recruiting podcasting. I can say that much. Well, there you have it, pals, Director of Recruiting at HubSpot Becky McCullough, she’s amazing, and you’re all amazing for tuning in and listening. That just about does it for us here at Talk Talent to Me and Hired HQ. Once again, I’ve been Rob Stevenson, Becky McCullough has been Becky McCullough. And you have been amazing, beautiful, wonderful talent acquisition darlings. Have a spectacular week and happy hunting.

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33:21 RS: Talk Talent to Me is brought to you by Hired, a double opt-in global marketplace, connecting the best fit active talent to the most exciting recruiting organizations. If you would like to learn more about how we can help you find your next great hire, head to hired.com/employers and we’ll get started.