In this episode, Hannah offers key insights into the refreshing way Coda does their recruiting, from the initial call which is more like a pitch that overviews all the different product features, to laying out to the candidate how Coda is differentiated from other players in the productivity space. We dive into why it’s so incredibly beneficial to have a front-loaded approach like this, and the way that Coda gives the candidate a choice.
[0:00:06.1] RS: Welcome to Talk Talent to Me. A podcast featuring the most elite talent leaders on the frontline’s modern recruitment.
[0:00:12.8] FEMALE: We actually want to understand the themes of someone’s life, we want to understand how they make decisions. Where are they willing to take risks and what it looks like when they fail.
[0:00:22.7] RS: No holds barred, completely off the cuff interviews with directors of recruitment, VPs of global talent, CHROs and everyone in between.
[0:00:31.1] FEMALE: Once I went through the classes and the trainings got the certifications through diversity and inclusion, I still felt like something was missing.
[0:00:39.7] MALE: Talent acquisition, it’s a fantastic career, you are trusted by the organization, you get to work with the C-Suite and the security at the front desk and everybody in between and everybody knows you.
[0:00:53.0] RS: I’m your host, Rob Stevenson and you’re about to hear the best in the biz, Talk Talent to Me.
[0:01:00.1] RS: Joining us today on Talk Talent to Me is Hannah Spiegel who is in talent over at Coda. Hannah, welcome to the podcast, how are you today?
[0:01:07.4] HS: I’m doing well, thanks so much for having me.
[0:01:09.5] RS: I’m so pleased to have you here and I wanted to make a quick connection just because for fans of the – the longtime fans of Talk Talent to Me, maybe who have been with me in my previous podcasting days, they will remember well, [Inaudible 0:01:23.3] who was my founding podcaster who I’ve done 50 episodes with, and most importantly is your fiancé. It’s all kind of in the family here, I wanted to call that out, this little weird connection.
The person on the podcast today, you are. Let’s talk about you, I have a million questions for you Hannah but at the top, I just love to know a little bit about your role because it seems like you do a little bit of everything over there. Would you mind, for the folks at home, kind of explaining how it is you spend your days at work?
[0:01:51.3] HS: It’s a good question and I think it’s subject to change pretty much every week or quarter in terms of however we set that but my role currently at Coda is, I support part of our engineering team. I’ve been working specifically on the data side but have worked on security engineering prior. I also work on hiring for all of our data science and then revenue ops roles, and then I also support our people ops roles and our marketing partnerships brand and solutions teams.
Pretty spread across almost everything with the exception of sales and full stack engineering for the most part. That’s probably going to change, we’re hiring a number of recruiters for our team so everyone will become a little bit more specialized and they think, in my role in particular, I’ll be moving over a little bit more heavily on the product side of recruiting but for now, given, we’re even aware of where we’re at in our stage. I’ve been kind of spread across a number of departments
[0:02:50.9] RS: Is that something you look forward to? Do you prefer – do you think it’s better to be specialized in recruitment?
[0:02:57.0] HS: I think it can go both ways. I think for me, I really enjoy being able to dive into anything. I think that when you get really deep in recruiting and have a lot of experience, it’s not too hard to actually pivot and make and move into departments and work on roles that you haven’t worked on before because I think if you have a good process and a good framework for how you build pipeline and for how you close candidates.
It’s pretty translatable even if the roles themselves are a little bit different. I think you can get hyper specialized, and I know a lot of folks who for example will only specialize in sales, recruiting or only specialize in engineering recruiting. I like the flexibility of bouncing around across teams and departments, I think for me, it’s been a really good way to have a ton of business contacts in a way that I wouldn’t if I was really deep in just one specific organization.
That’s been super helpful to me, especially as Coda has grown. When I joined Coda, Coda was only about a team of 70 people and we’re a little over the 180 mark today. For context, I joined Coda about 16 months ago so it’s been really helpful and beneficial to me to have that cross functional context, especially as we’ve scaled. But I think now that we’ve grown a little bit, it makes sense for us to narrow everyone’s focus just a little bit too.
[0:04:12.7] RS: Yeah, I think that’s the – one of the better, more nuanced answers I’ve had to that question because people seem to come down on one side of that fence, there’s people who are like, “Look, you need to be able to be a team player and got to pick up whatever roles come up.” Then there’s others that are like, “Look, your value as a recruiter is in your network and if you specialize in a network then you’ll be more invaluable to a company because you have this digital rolodex of people you can drum up.
I think you can do both and you can cultivate a network and lots of different specialties. Also, interesting you point out that it’s more about the process, right? If you can lock in your process and you can kind of point that at any specialty, right?
Because you just need to learn a base amount of literacy in a role, which a clever person can put together with a couple well placed conversations with experts, you know? Then point their process at that kind of role so that makes it all the sense in the world to me.
[0:05:07.9] HS: It’s definitely true and I think I was actually just telling someone who is a more recent grad on our team who just joined Coda. I think of recruiting as really being something that basically everyone falls into. I don’t think anyone goes to college with the intention of, I’m going to graduate and become a recruiter.” So with that in mind, a lot of times, like almost everyone is doing something for the first time. they’re working on a new role for the first time, they’re working with a new hiring manger for the first time.
It’s much more about getting a baseline process and then you can eventually become a subject matter expert. But it’s not going to be the same as going to school with the intention of joining a role as a software engineer or going to school with the intention of joining a company as a marketer. It’s a little bit different just because of the way in which people fall into it but I think what that also means is, you can be a product of your environment and you can pick up so much more just how different companies operate, and learn a lot on the job. Which I think for me is the thing that continues to make recruiting dynamic even after having been in recruiting capacity for a long time.
[0:06:17.1] RS: I’m guessing you didn’t do that, you didn’t go to college and say I’m going to be a recruiter when I grow up. How did you kind of wind up at Coda, can you share a little bit about your career progression?
[0:06:25.6] HS: Yeah, absolutely. My first job in recruiting was actually at an investment bank and I hated it. I think I realized, I love recruiting, I love the act of helping people find jobs and connecting people and building up companies. It’s a little different when you have a set of 450 interns and your idea is, you’re going to fill every single entry-level role with those folks.
Over time, I think what I realize is, I wanted something a little bit more fast paced where I get to work on different parts of the company and not on one specific role. So I moved back to California, where my family’s from, and started working in startups. Coda is actually the fourth startup I think that I worked in over the last, however many years, almost eight, I guess, which is pretty crazy.
I actually came to Coda through – my fiancé knew Kenny Mendes who leads our people legal and finance team. Basically our entire T&A function. Kenny was a long time mentor of his and when I saw that there was the opportunity to join Coda as a recruiter, it wasn’t the role I actually think I initially anticipated taking but for me, it presented a lot of exciting opportunities just due to the strength of leaders who were in place and then the strength of the overall team. I thought, “Hey, if I can get in on something like this fairly early on, there will be opportunity that will presents itself, especially as the company grows.” And I think that’s definitely then the case.
Given that I was the second recruiter on the ground, so to speak, at Coda and the team is now 12 strong. And we’re looking to probably add two to four more through the next three months.
[0:07:57.2] RS: Got it. What kind of conversations were you having to – Kenny is, I’ve recruited with Kenny in the past. Very fascinating guy, very high producer kind of individual. What kind of conversations were you having to choose Coda? Because once you’ve had a few years in the trenches, you have the skillset.
As a recruiter, you can kind of lend yourself to any company that’s hiring, right? I feel like you have that ability once you’ve proven that you can recruit. I’m curious why Coda was a good fit for your goals and kind of what conversations happen to make you choose it?
[0:08:27.8] HS: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think to your point, there are a lot of opportunities that present itself. The interesting thing for me actually was, I was starting to think about looking in a time where companies weren’t hiring as aggressively as they are right now.
Obviously, we’re in a very different state of the world right now but I think for me, a lot of the advice that I had been getting was to think about taking a first recruiter role and taking a role where “Hey, you can be the first person on the ground, you’ve seen this done before and now three times over, pretty successful companies. You can take a chance on doing something where no one else has been there before and kind of figure out your own processes, pave your own path so to speak.”
For me, I think when I thought about it, there was – one, what is the actual opportunity that a company presents? Two, what is the individual level of impact that I can have? And three, who are the people that I’m going to be surrounding myself with.
When I look back on companies that I’ve been with and the companies that I’ve had the privilege of joining, a lot of it came down to the strength of the team that was in place so for me, a lot of – it was always going to be about finding the right people and connecting myself to the right people.
I think one thing that I felt I had been missing that I wanted to kind of latch back onto in joining a company like Coda, was the ability to be with a really strong team that had kind of seen this and done this before. It was a little bit different than I think a lot of what people had thought I should be taking in terms of opportunity, but I think it was one of those times where I had to trust my gut instinct.
The other thing that was interesting about Coda versus any other company that I have joined in the past is, I’ve never actually been the end user of a product that I worked on. I think there is something to be said about having that connection firsthand to a product that resonates when you talk to folks in a way that it doesn’t with other companies.
One thing that we do that’s super different at Coda is, our initial recruiting calls are actually pitches that we do via zoom, where we spend 15 to 30 minutes just going through all of the elements of our product and how Coda’s product and business work. I think being able to get that deep on a product that you’re recruiting talent for, you need to have a different level of understanding that comes with that firsthand user experience.
Having that opportunity was also something that I thought would be a differentiator for me at this stage.
[0:11:00.0] RS: That’s part of the interview process, jumping into the product.
[0:11:02.1] HS: Yeah, actually, our initial calls are actually a pitch where, rather than looking at a candidate’s resume and just kind of asking them about their experience and going into those details, we actually sit down with an entire overview of all of the different product features and talk through, “Hey, this is what Coda is, this is why it’s differentiated from other players in the broader productivity space.”
This is how we think about our business, this is kind of our core revenue model, this is how we reach users outside of our current ecosystem. So it’s definitely much more in-depth than getting people excited from that initial touch point, versus going into a call where you’re kind of being just grilled on your experience.
[0:11:42.7] RS: It seems so obvious when you put it like that. But as a candidate, I’ve never thought to really front-load with that, right? It’s like you do this dance where it’s like, “Learn a little bit about the people and hear about the long term vision of the company and I’ll display myself in the best way possible to try and get them to give me an offer,” blah-blah-blah.
Wouldn’t it be better to know right off the top? “Oh, I don’t like this product, I don’t think it’s good, it’s not exciting to me.” Or “Maybe it sells but it doesn’t light a fire.” Or “I’m not excited in this industry, the product, I don’t think it’s good.” All these things that you need to know before you get there and you learn about all of the actual realities of the product, and maybe you don’t even like it. That seems more important than just – it doesn’t matter who I be working with, if I don’t care about the product, then I don’t want to work there, right?
[0:12:29.4] HS: Totally. I mean, I’ll admit – and he would call me out on this too but when Kenny suggested that this be the path that we go down for doing these calls, I was super skeptical and I said, “You know, I just don’t know if that’s the best use of our time, if that’s going to really work.” I will be the first to admit, I was super wrong. I do think that there is a different level of connection that people have, and to your point, it is something where that can kind of click for folks.
We get a lot of folks that do come in to our process that say, “I know about Coda, I watched a video on YouTube one time.” Or, “I’ve seen it in the news. I know that it’s doing this thing.” I think there are moments that we take for granted, as daily users of the product, that real click for people when they see it in real time and through a live demo that I think can really be a differentiator for them in that experience. Especially when we do have folks that are interested in Coda because of their natural desire to work in productivity software.
Understanding the nuances and differences between Coda and other products is something that really makes a difference for them. And we do have a slide where we actually talk about the entire market and showcase what is the difference between Coda and these other players. How do we see ourselves, and how do see ourselves within this market, and how do other people view us? And why does this then lead to who we compete with, for example, on deal cycles?
Understanding those points, our PA, I think especially when we have folks and go to market roles.
[0:13:57.6] RS: What’s the order of operations there? Does it go, initial phone screen, make sure that you are who you say you are and you might be right for a role, and then how far along in the process do you see, “Okay, let’s jump into the product?”
[0:14:08.6] HS: The product happens actually first. We jump into the product immediately and then we’ll probably follow-up on a lot of timeline logistical questions. Then sometimes there’s an additional evaluation component where we’ll talk through background afterwards a little bit but I think it’s right out of – right from the beginning, our goal is to familiarize them with Coda and with the product. I think the idea and thesis behind this comps form, we reviewed a lot of resumes and we can trust like “Hey, we’re talking to the folks whose resumes do match the position.”
There might be some follow-up questions we want to ask on the experience and on their tenure within different roles, but it really is getting into the product as early as possible to have those kinds of moments click for them.
[0:14:55.8] RS: Do you do those demos or is that like an opportunity for SDRs or someone like that to hone their pitching?
[0:15:00.9] HS: Yeah, that’s a good question because we actually are just starting to hire SDRs, so I don’t think it’s something we’d probably deploy to them. Right now, it really is run by the recruiting team so the recruiting team does this as an individual call. If all else fails in my recruiting career, I have been told that I can probably go into doing sales or something for Coda. So just in case everything else doesn’t work out for me, that’s an opportunity.
[0:15:23.2] RS: Yeah, you can always give up on yourself and do sales.
[0:15:25.8] HS: Exactly, or something like that or go into product marketing or something like that. I do think, us being able to have that level of debt is something that is a differentiator for our team, compared to other recruiting teams in the valley too.
It’s a pretty cutthroat market as I’m sure you’re very well aware right now. Anything we can do to present Coda differently and to show what we’re doing is important and why we all kind of stand behind our product in this way, is something I think that will be a key differentiator for us too.
[0:15:59.0] RS: Yeah, it makes sense. It would be an opportunity to get SDRs in there to hone their pitching, although the sales leadership would probably argue that that’s a time they could better spend actually selling. Although, what’s interesting is that this demo of the product I think historically that has been a part of the interview process for sales, but nobody else. And that makes sense because it’s like, “Okay, if you’re a sales person, you are going to be selling this, you really need to know what you’re getting yourself into.” But everyone is selling it.
Even if you’re making the thing that’s sold, you need to be in a position where you represent this product and this product represents you and your work. So it just makes all the sense in the world to me to front load that.
I wanted to go back a little bit to your decision to join Coda, because you said it was a little different than what other people thought you should be doing. But what did people think you should be doing? How is it different? I want to hear about the haters.
[0:16:53.4] HS: Not haters, but I think you know, I think the job search is so personal and I just spend a lot of time talking I think – just naturally when you are someone in recruiting, you have people in your personal life and people – even your colleagues or whenever, when they are thinking about their next move, they are going to look to you for those job search related questions. And I think a lot of people had told me “Well, just take a chance on something earlier.”
Hey, Segment was super successful, very lucky to have been in that environment for so long and have been given the opportunity financially to then be able to take on more risk in whatever I was joining next. And I think for me, a lot of people thought, yeah, chase something super early. You get in really early and get into a place where you don’t have to that kind of cushion of having other people around you.
You can figure these things out, like you’ve seen what this looks like. And I think for me, it wasn’t really about that. It wasn’t – that probably would have been the fastest way to maximize like my own title, my own opportunity. But I think for me, it probably actually wouldn’t have maximized my learning. I think I would be doing a lot of things for the first time but there are also things that I know how to do, like just taking processes that I – for example, that I’d had and other companies and just throwing them in the fire and seeing what happened.
I think with Coda, it’s been so much more eye-opening to be able to develop myself as a recruiter and think about, “Okay, what are the ways that I’ve seen companies do things? Are these even the right ways that we should be considering?” We have this value at Coda that we call right versus familiar, which is this idea that doing the thing that other people are doing is the familiar thing but it may not be, right?
There are times when it is but there are times when it is not, so we shouldn’t just copy what someone else has done. And I think if I have gone to some of these earlier stage environments, I was probably putting myself in a position where I would have just copied things that I saw at other companies and so “Okay, let’s just regurgitate this process and then go from there.” I think what Coda then presented me with is this opportunity to kind of challenge that mentality. Like do things differently.
I think, if I were to go to any company now, I would probably take this pitch thing that I was so skeptical about and incorporate it in how we do things. We also do offers very differently here in a way that, our offer calls take 45 minutes and we sit there and talk about the different opportunities. We give candidates a choice, which is pretty unique, like “These are your kind of different offer options. Think about what that means to you today. Think about what that means to you as the company grows.”
Equity is obviously a meaningful piece. We want you to be thinking as an employee like an investor. I think some of those practices are things that I would have never thought about that now I can imagine like going back to doing the way I had done them previously.
[0:19:49.2] RS: Yeah, that was interesting, now that I think about it, the offer letter calls I’ve been on, which hadn’t been that many to be fair, I think have never lasted longer than 15 minutes, right? Usually it’s like, “Hey, everyone liked meeting you. We have put together an offer. This is the number, this is the equity component, what are you thinking? What is your timeline? Sending the offer to your email, anyone else you want to speak to? Okay, bye.” Right? What comprises your offer calls? Why do they take so long?
[0:20:17.3] HS: Kenny wrote a great blog post and it is in a Coda document, just on the Coda offer model, so definitely worth checking out if you are interested in how we think about doing offers here. But we spend a lot of time talking the candidates through these different options. Basically, it’s a pretty linear tradeoff. You’ll get different amounts of base salary versus equity that range. We know every candidate coming into our process has different appetites for risk.
Some people are more risk-averse, they have home payments, car payments, whatever it is that they need to make sure that they have so they would rather have guaranteed cash. Other candidates coming into this maybe have more financial flexibility to take on more risk at this stage and so they would optimize a little bit more for longer term upside, so we talk about what that means. We also talk through different scenarios.
If a company is at – if a company grows to this amount, this is what your competition package will look like if the company grows to these things, so you can kind of play around with these different scenarios and really understand. We also take a lot of more time than anywhere I’ve been at to get really deep in what the equity actually means. I think equity oftentimes is actually the most important part of someone’s compensation package.
I think a lot of companies don’t do a great job of being a transparent around that. What does it actually mean to you? What does it actually going to cost you? How are you going to be taxed on these things? And so we actually provide a ton of clarity around that and help people really understand the nuances of what this means, and when they’ll receive it, and how much it’s worth today, how much it will be worth in these different scenarios.
I think that it is something that’s especially advantageous when you have more junior candidates because a lot of times they don’t know. I mean, I was talking to a friend who is a recruiting coordinator, who is telling me that their last company, they just didn’t even buy into the company’s equity because they didn’t think it was going to be worth that much. And I think that’s a mistake that a lot of people make because they just don’t know.
I don’t think companies do a good job of being transparent around that and I think that’s one thing that we try to arrive at, is this understanding to every single candidate regardless of their experience, to make sure that they have everything they need to make an informed decision about their compensation package.
[0:22:33.3] RS: That is so important because most people don’t know enough to ask about like the real questions they need to ask about equity. I had these people ask me a million times or not even ask me, they come to me excited. They’re like, “They’re going to give me $40,000 shares” and I’m like, “Okay, how many shares outstanding?” and they’re like, “I don’t know” and then they go and ask and then they’re like, “Oh, we don’t share how many shares outstanding there are.”
Okay, well then that number means nothing. $40,000 divided by question mark, you know? Or I guess the other way around, that means nothing, and then all these other stuff about like what is strike price, what is about for your investing period one year cliff, what does option mean, you don’t get these stocks. You are allowed to buy them at a certain point. No one knows what any of this stuff is, and the truth is it’s kind of table stakes to know this and be informed in an actual offer.
I think it is super crucial for recruiting teams to assume that there isn’t this base level of literacy and walk people through it exactly what this means. Because if you don’t tell them and they don’t ask, then they’re never going to know and then basically, what should be a really compelling part of the offer, the equity structure, means nothing.
[0:23:37.8] HS: I think it is definitely something that I would challenge most recruiting teams in the valley to up level on, is just their understanding of equity. And then their ability to talk about it to candidates, because I think if you are really going to be on the candidate side and really want to do whatever you can to get the candidate there, it is crucial that they actually understand the mechanics of what their equity package is today.
What their equity package is over time and how they’re going to be able to pay for it too, because I do think there is that – there is also that added component of, “Hey, this isn’t worth something until it is.” So what is this going to look like when it’s liquid, and what are you going to need to pay for your options in most of these cases in order to be able to pay for that?”
[0:24:19.9] RS: Yes, the most frank conversation I had about equity at a startup was the cofounder. I told him how many shares I had been offered and he’s like, “Well, kind of where we are now, will you be looking at with that if we got acquired, would be you know, a nice new car. Not like a Lambo but you know, a nice Subaru” right? She was very real with me about like what this would mean under the best case scenario and then it’s like, “Okay, that’s a framework for how it actually effects my comp” right?
As opposed to just like, “Is this a lottery ticket? Am I maybe going to be filthy rich someday?” You know, there is just no clarity on that, so I support the hell out of being as frank as possible with people. And at least, you kind of give them this crash course on what equity means, because most people learn by not knowing after having worked at startups for five, six years.
[0:25:13.2] HS: Right and a lot of times people are learning by having an experience where they have been burned by that, right? That they go to a company – I recently read something from an account executive who also used to work at Segment and one thing that he said, he wish he had stayed an entire year because he didn’t understand what he was leaving on the table by not staying for that investing period. And why chasing an increase in the base salary is lower than what his equity would have been worth if he had stayed for that period.
I think this is where there needs to be a bigger conversation with folks on just what this actually means. Because it is something that is super powerful and really going to have a meaningful financial implication for your future if you understand it and can therefore kind of back that up to you. I think a lot of people kind of sweep that under the rug because it is complicated in offer talks, and they don’t want to get into the nitty-gritty.
There is so many tax pieces that I think a lot of people don’t want to spend time working on but it is a really important piece. Because I think that’s where a lot of people can then feel misguided and feel like they were – what they were told was misrepresented at a later stage, that is important to flush out those details before they even commit to joining.
[0:26:30.0] RS: Yeah, you said that much better than I did before you. You should probably be those here. Yeah, it is important to point out too that it is not just a matter of junior employees. I remember when I was leaving a company, I was leaving and I had been there like three years eight months. And when I was discussing that I was leaving with someone, this individual was one of the most senior sales people at the company and she was wildly successful and very smart and vigil.
She was like, “Well Rob, why don’t you stay a few more months so you get that fourth year invested?” And I had to tell her after the first year you invest monthly, and that’s just a very specific detail that someone 20 years into their career fantastically successful didn’t know, right? This is just a specific domain of knowledge that I think you should assume no one has literacy when you are speaking with them.
[0:27:19.4] HS: Even for us too, like I always tell folks, even if you’re familiar with this, let me know if this is something you’ve already through or something you’ve had exposure too. Or if it’s not, I am happy to skip portions of this if you really don’t need this context but I find almost anyone myself included can use a refresher. I mean, these are the topics that we have in our household, but I was just sitting there talking about the difference between the RSUs and the difference in ISOs [inaudible:0:27:48] at the kitchen table the other day.
I mean, I think there is an advantage when you live with someone who lives so deeply in this recruiting and comp world too, but most people don’t have that. And so it’s making sure that they understand. Hey, also if we are going to be comparing offers across really different stages of companies, how do you do the math on thinking through what that actually means for you and what the potential upside is for those situations do.
[0:28:10.9] RS: Totally. Yeah, I like that you set that context and sort of figure out the expectation going in like, “Hey, how familiar are you with this?” Because you don’t want to mansplain equity to a candidate. Well Hannah, this has been so great. I have a ton more questions for you but we are creeping up on optimal podcast length. I want to put it on you to kind of tie a neat little bow on this to make it holiday specific.
What advice would you give to talent folks who are looking to maybe move, take a new job, assessing the next step in their career, because it seems like a very measured holistic approach to your moves. What advice would you give to folks who are thinking of moving on and assessing a new role?
[0:28:51.1] HS: Yeah, I think the biggest thing that I always come back to when I think about taking in new roles, this was actually advice that I got from a former Head of People of mine from at MuleSoft, on a vendor who now leads people at Asana and what she told me a long time ago, what she said, she thinks too many people think of their career as a ladder and you should actually think about it as more of a jungle gym.
You’re not always going to be moving exactly upper rank, you are going to have to make some lateral moves that are them going to be possibly more advantageous for you in the long run. And I think that’s been something that I have held true to for a lot of my career. It’s always been about chasing the maximum opportunity. If you can get a really killer role that’s going to have the highest title at a company that goes nowhere, it doesn’t do anything for you either.
I think you should be chasing the opportunity to work at companies that have tons of maximum potential and just huge market opportunities that are going to be growing and are to that be exciting and dynamic and changing a lot. You should also take the opportunity to surround yourself with the best possible people who are going to challenge you and in Kenny’s case, make me do things that I didn’t want to do that I am probably are better for on the back end of it.
I think if you take those two things like everything else for you will kind of compound and those two things have truly compounding effects. I would challenge people to get out of this mindset of if I am going to make a move, I need to be making more money. I need to have a higher title and think instead about maybe it is not what your compensation or your title looks like today but it is where can you actually be on the back end of taking that next stop and so thinking about it in those senses is something that’s really important.
[0:30:31.9] RS: That is fantastic advice and this episode has been jammed packed with fantastic advice. Hannah, at this point I would just say thank you so much for being here and for sharing all of this with us. I really loved chatting with you today.
[0:30:42.6] HS: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
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