Joining me today on Talkdesk to me is the global talent learning director over at Cartier, Sasha Lutee. Sasha, welcome to the podcast. How are you today?
Sacha Luthi: I’m very well. Hello, and thank you for having me.
Host: Rob Stevenson: I’m so pleased you’re here. Where are you broadcasting in from?
Sacha Luthi: Today, I mean, Geneva.
Host: Rob Stevenson: Geneva. In Geneva. This is an international global podcast. I want people to make it well known to them. I’m so pleased you’re here all the way.
I think you’re you must be my first Swiss guest, although you and yourself are not Swiss. Correct? You just find yourself in Switzerland?
Sacha Luthi: Yeah. I’m actually Swiss Austrian. It’s kind of my mother’s Austrian. My father is from this big village that we call Switzerland. So yeah.
Host: Rob Stevenson: How many people in Switzerland?
Sacha Luthi: I think around a bit more than eight, you know, eight point two, couldn’t know wouldn’t know exactly about that. With four official national languages and kind of a weird history. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
No kidding. Do you
Host: Rob Stevenson: speak one in one language?
Sacha Luthi: I do speak three of them, and then I run some others along the way when I live in Spain or so yeah. I have a number some languages now. In my portfolio.
Host: Rob Stevenson: It’s a little bit like software engineering where once you add one language, you can add another little user.
Sacha Luthi: Yeah. You’re right. Yeah. And actually, you’re right now in a group bilingual, so then nothing like this Latin or with a Germanic roots that makes it easier. I’m thinking to learn now a new one that has nothing to do like Mandarin or Japanese or Arabic, but That’s another story because you need to learn everything from scratch.
So but I like learning changes. So so I’ll see.
Host: Rob Stevenson: All of the characters, right, are different. All the writing, even, like, particularly, the Asian ones go in different directions too.
Sacha Luthi: Correct? Correct? And you start really from scratch like a baby. It’s normally learning language to learn everything. So yeah.
We’ll see.
Host: Rob Stevenson: I didn’t know you were a polyglot. Can I ask you since you speak a few languages what language do you your sub vocalization, like your internal monologue? What language do you think in?
Sacha Luthi: Yeah. That’s a good one. So tends to be French on mathematics. But when I’m having conversation with people, I don’t think in a language before speak, So the languages I speak are fluent once. Yeah.
So when I speak, my wife is Brazilian, so I would speak Portuguese with her. Although when we have an argument, I switch to French, because words have a meaning and have a weight. And sometimes this is the nuances we have in something we just
Host: Rob Stevenson: Interesting. Yeah. I’m interested in, like, in the occasions when you default. Would you say French is, like, your primary, like, your default language?
Sacha Luthi: It’s a language from the heart, probably? Yeah. It’s the one that although I would say, this is why it’s really English, but I love German humor, so I tend to watch stuff also in German. But, yeah, I would say French is a little bit close culturally your French culture. But it’s it’s difficult.
Host: Rob Stevenson: Sacha, I could speak to you about language this whole time, and I think at some point that we’re supposed to do what the title of the podcast says. But it does speak to you. Like, it’s interesting you are looking to add another language completely different from the ones you know, but that speaks to your role in in talent and development and sort of upskilling. So it makes you well suited. I think I am not surprised to hear that.
Would you mind just for the folks at home and for me, candidly as well. Just to say a little context, could you tell us a little bit about your background and then how you describe your current role?
Sacha Luthi: Yeah. So, yeah, if I don’t start with primary school, of course. So I’m just gonna give you, like, cornerstones. Right? So I would say a career hasn’t been something that I in hand side to make sense of things.
Right? But you meet people by a chance, by design, and then things happen. I would say my carrier is more generalistic background. I started at market level, so local than regional and non global. And I did a number of industries.
So today into luxury industry, it wasn’t by design. I would say it happened over time. I did elevator industry, Otis, which is a great company than Swisscom Mobile, which was still at the peak of telecom and when the margins were still very, very good. And then I went to do premium jewelry and fashion now. Let’s check with watches and jewelry.
So being a generalist, you have kind of a systemic view. I would say then in terms of career, have a sweet spot for organizational change leadership and learning, but have a broadened trust in everything that is happening in in HR and beyond, I would say. And I would say today my current role is talent, management, talent, development, learning. And something is called Worklab, which is a great small team of very innovative thinkers and having a a very diverse set of skills and experiences around learning hotel and around experience design. Does a person doing a PG and collective intelligence that bring strong practice of emerging change practices.
So I have the chance to have this department on top, and and that’s really nice too. So I don’t attend acquisition today, if you want me to empower branding sites, really all that. Just what I mentioned before.
Host: Rob Stevenson: Right. Yeah? Right. Right. So how do you kind of measure success in that role when you are looking at helping the team up level, up skill, and then just organizational change as a as an approach as like a directive.
What does success look like?
Sacha Luthi: That’s a good question. You can fool yourself with thinking that KPIs are all what matters in change. But at the end of the day, So if you speak about my own team, again, what culture do you want? You have to be careful what you want to achieve. Right?
And so what does matter to me with the team? And so at a measure things like to engage in service, you have great ways to understand how a team works, but it’s more conservative process like there are platforms like open decide or squadify who allow you to put a frame around how your team is doing. And to co design how you would like your team to work and to be led. Then when you look a bit broader as a function, if you look at what does success mean? Now it’s very broad.
I would say, I can make things very complicated as an HR person. Or I can try to build an environment in which people want to work with you. And the question is always, I don’t want people to work with me because they have to And I’m always simplifying now, but the two reasons when you need to find why you’re here. When I was in a regional role, I was saying, why would global want to work with me? Why would local want to work with me?
I’m always simplifying now, but is, what do I bring to the table that they don’t have? How do I support them and have issues? And that’s the starting point. Of course, there’s more to it. But I like to ask myself the question, why do people want to work with me?
And what can I do for that to happen and to be a real partner? That’s the same globally now. So that’s the way I look at things, and then you can start measuring how often come people to you? Do people share with you what they’re doing? And are they comfortable?
Are people challenging you openly? You know that number of things you have to be attentive to, I think, as a leader. And, yeah, I’m not perfect. Big amount of mistakes, like everybody, I guess. But I try to notice those things, which are not always about KPIs.
And then we can add all kind of business KPIs on top of course. When you look at talent mobility or your skills gap and how you measure them and how you close them, and and then you can get into the classical age of stuff. That it was a long answer to a short question. Sorry.
Host: Rob Stevenson: No. That was a great answer. And it’s an interesting approach to self development. It’s an interesting, self critical question to ask, why would this department or why would this function want to work with me? What do I bring to the table?
Right? Is that aimed at just being more effective in your current role? Or is that about I I’m in this current role. I want to progress to this other one. I want to be promoted.
I want to oversee. More have more head count responsibility, etcetera. Is it both and what direction does the answer to that question point you? I guess, that’s what I’m asking.
Sacha Luthi: I don’t think it’s to have more head counts or all I must say, you know, one of the things that came to terms with is that articulating what you want around powers and I like power. And I have no shame in saying that. The question is how do I use power? Because power comes in many shapes and form and you have a responsibility. So I guess, I think what is behind this and depression is really good is the need to be, I think, human.
I wanna have an impact. I wanna be relevant. And you have to be careful that doesn’t go into anxiety because I think I can bring something and I hope I can bring something. And so I wanna make sure I bring but also how or bring it over. So I guess this is the underlying thing.
Yeah. And then speaking to power, it’s not only about the number of FTEs, I think, is power is the power you have on people to make a positive impact in their lives. And I’m always succeeding, I guess, but that’s the intent. Does that answer your question? Just to make sure.
Yeah. Yeah.
Host: Rob Stevenson: Yeah. Certainly. It’s just I’d never heard the question frame that way in a self reflection of is clear to yourself why you may want a job. Right? Or why you may be qualified, but you have to put yourself in the shoes of someone else and in the widespread bifurcated motivations of those people.
Sacha Luthi: Yeah.
Host: Rob Stevenson: Right? Like, when you think why is what I’m doing useful to a global department or can it be relevant? Like, I don’t think a lot of people reflect in terms of why should this be useful to other people.
Sacha Luthi: Do not think when you speak of power, sometimes power can be used as a way to control. Although, I think it’s an illusion to think that you control anything because create a culture of control people which just do things in your back. Or you can just power to create free space and space for experimentation, space for people to do things. And here comes the thing is, I know I’m doing a good job when I’m going on holidays and nobody deserves me because I know that people can operate well without me being around. And ultimately, that’s what I always saying.
I hope that within three years, I’m not needed anymore in my job, not in the same capacity. Hopefully, people will want me for something else. But so is how do I build an organization that is sustainable, resilient, and that I use my power towards that.
Host: Rob Stevenson: Does that true north sort of drive the way you approach learning and development when it comes time for people to be critical about where they want to grow. Mhmm. Are you sort of leading up to them to decide, or is there any sort of prescription around, hey, let’s be specific about your deficiencies and show those up? How do you approach maybe with your own team or peers? How do you go about directing people?
Sacha Luthi: Yeah. I think if you look at our educational system, which is very good at pointing out what we’re not good at and not so good at leveraging on strength. I think this is transported off to the corporate world, I would say. But I would say that you have to leverage a new strength. So I’m not speaking about my particular role now, but I would say my practice is more having good conversations with dialogue, asking good questions to people in my team so that they come to a conclusion about what they need or what they think they need most.
And then it’s for me as a leader to accept that they might take a different path than the one I think they should take sometimes. And I will challenge I will ask questions. I will sometimes might be proactive a bit. But at the end of the day, I can, of course, people to learn, develop something. If they don’t see it, they might do it, but then it’s called compliance.
And I think my role is more to inspire, to ask questions give it a direction. Sometimes people say, hey, essentially, you have an idea where could find that, so I can help them to connect with others. But, yeah, I’ve I’ve shifted would say if you would speak to me fifteen years ago, and I started leading quite late, I would say, but certainly in the beginning, I wasn’t thinking like this. Make it wise at one time, hopefully.
Host: Rob Stevenson: Good. Good. Yeah. I I’m so pleased that you said it’s more important to leverage on strength.
Sacha Luthi: Yeah.
Host: Rob Stevenson: I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. And in terms of one’s own development, one’s own value to the market to to be craft and capitalistic, you are where you are right now because of the things you’re exceptionally good at. Right? And so getting a little better at something you’re bad at is what deserving of an entry level salary and and title and level of responsibility. And, you know, there’s certain things, like, empathy and management and basic things that you do need to up level just to be well rounded.
But in general, I tend to agree that you’re looking at the wrong end of the growth tree. If you are focusing on the things that you are deficient in, you are better off trying to get one percent better at the thing you’re already an expert at. Yeah.
Sacha Luthi: Right? Yeah. And just to make sure that I’m not be on the certain thresholds on what I’m not good at because that cannot we did tremendously can become a derailleur. But I would say, certainly, you need to look at just a conversation with this this afternoon, actually. And yeah.
So it’s how do I find out what I’m really good at, what gives me energy, and where there’s a space for that to be used. And that goes back to the impact I was mentioning before. There’s things that give me energy that I’m really good at, and I wanna be in an environment where I can express those strengths. And if I can’t, no hard feelings. But I think at this moral time, I think where I’m now, I’m really happy.
I’m she just bought a house, so kind of would give an idea, but that I wanna stay longer.
Host: Rob Stevenson: Right? So I
Sacha Luthi: think that that’s really important. Yeah. Strength and I don’t know when when I’m playing basketball, I’m I’m doing magic also. It’s so easy to go high to get angry at things that don’t work and to try to force yourself into something that isn’t you. Which doesn’t mean you don’t have to insist when things don’t work, but there’s there’s this set of flagship pieces we have.
So I’m not gonna get what I want here. Or let’s call it a day and and switch something else. So it’s this balance between insisting too much or giving up too early. Mhmm. Does it make sense?
Host: Rob Stevenson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting, I think, to sort of measure the impact of your own deficiencies a little bit. Mhmm.
Because if you look at some area where you are lacking your deficient and it’s having a really adverse impact on people around you, then okay, maybe you need to shore up some weaknesses. But in general, look at something that a skill tree that you have deprioritized a long time ago. What does raising your floor actually mean for you? Will it only really take you to a base level of competence? And is that actually a needle mover for your career and your ability?
Your own personal domain? Probably not. Right? So I think it’s just interesting to be critical about what is actually having adverse impact versus what the best case scenario of is not that great.
Sacha Luthi: Yeah. And I think the number of elements that are interesting in this context you’re saying is what makes you unique and why, again, you’re going back to what increases your value. And I like to speak about unique time proposition. And the ability to articulate this, which is very difficult. I’d say also you would think if you’re not good in something, but you look at it from a collective perspective, when you look at building teams, you need to look at this element.
There are some other people around you that can jump in or cover for that gap. So It’s also to look and start to look at performance and that carrier from this. We still value and recognize individuals. But how do we put those strengths together so that the collective output is better? So, yeah, I think those two elements come on on top of what you just said.
Host: Rob Stevenson: What are some questions you like to ask or or one can ask to identify their unique talent proposition?
Sacha Luthi: I’m gonna steal a question from somebody first. So I I listened to that to Tim Ferris and his show, and he’s also asking to his guests at the end. So if you had a message to the world or imagine you’re driving by a gigantic billboard, what would be written up there. I think we translate this to your talent proposition is so if your people you want to be aware about who you are and what you bring to the table, what would be written up there. I think that’s an interesting question.
Then something it comes more out with coaching conversations, I would say, but people are often afraid. Not I wouldn’t say afraid it’s maybe not the right word. Careful about stating their strength. So when you ask about someone, what are you not good at? You can answer this all afternoon, you have the big list coming up.
When you really ask people so, what are the strengths that make you unique? And is sometimes that limit kind of a self esteem action to not tend to feel very care I’m very careful about my strength, about putting them out there. So I think is in a conversation is to dig deeper and to insist a bit more with people on, hey, let’s push a bit more here. Becoming a bit more assertive about your own strength. Because somewhere inside you, I’m pretty sure you know what you’re really good at.
So don’t know if that’s helpful, but
Host: Rob Stevenson: Yeah. Yeah. I think so. And if you don’t have an example of that in that conversation even after pushing a little bit and not being afraid of coming off breakout then maybe you’re in the wrong job. Right?
If you’re not leveraging something that you’re really good at in your role, then I guess it comes down to your career motivations. Right? It’s like, okay, I’m uniquely good at something that’s completely unrelated to my job. That’s okay. I keep those world separate.
But in general, don’t we feel more fulfilled and also probably more highly compensated if you are doing something you’re exceptionally good at for your employer?
Sacha Luthi: Well, it’s a it’s a good question, the compensation. Right? You might have an exceptional skill that is not in demand. That cannot happen. Right?
Yeah. So I would say the question whether I’m a good job or not. Sometimes, I would say, no, it also took on my path good leaders to see things in me that maybe I wasn’t able to see myself. Right? And you need people along the way that believing you and that building confidence.
And so I would say that’s going back to this if I’m not good at something is, indeed, it’s at certain point of time, I have to take the courageous decision to stop something. It’s also important to go with a moment of discomfort and pushing and seeing, okay, exposing myself And when you say, I’m not good, give you an example. I start playing basketball very late. I was, like, one thirty six, a hundred thirty six centimeters with fourteen, which is, like, it’s not really tall and you don’t think we’re playing basketball, then it grew a lot. I mean, a lot proportionally, I’m less than six feet.
So and start playing late. And expose myself to the best players where I was. And it was difficult, but I grew a lot. And then eventually, you grow much more, but then you still need to ask yourself the question. I’m not gonna get towards the best there.
But I would say the exposure You have to put yourself in the difficult situations, but that’s the way I do things. I’m not saying everybody has to do it like this because you learn more. And then is it this reflection moment to say, okay. Am I in the right place? Can I get better?
How much effort do you need to put to go to the next level? And then make a conscious decision? Is this for me? Yes or no? Does it resonate?
Host: Rob Stevenson: Yeah. Yeah. It makes all the sense in the world to me. And I guess you need to bring that I don’t know, bringing that energy to everything in your life. Right?
For you basketball is a joy, I assume. It, like, brings you
Sacha Luthi: Yeah.
Host: Rob Stevenson: Health and happiness. But you’re not gonna be on the Swiss or French Olympic team, I assume.
Sacha Luthi: No. No.
Host: Rob Stevenson: But mastery is part of anything we do. Right?
Sacha Luthi: Yeah.
Host: Rob Stevenson: Can you do something that you’d never get better at? Maybe people just don’t have a competitive drive for things, but anything you apply yourself to no matter how bad you are in the beginning. Isn’t it about getting better?
Sacha Luthi: Yes. I would say that that’s part of the driver. If it’s a choice you make, you wanna become better at something. Was reading the other day this article from New York Times called tyranny of Convenience. And, you know, it looked at this thing that everything is made easy nowadays.
Your life, your apps thinking for you, the GPS, and all that. And then I was reflecting, okay, so we tend to make learning does learning have to be easy, right? For me if these answers know, it has to be at the right level so that you don’t get discouraged stop, but it also has to challenge yourself, and you have to fail on the way in some way. Otherwise, how are you gonna progress? So I would say, you know, this thing and mainly at the beginning, it’s more difficult call sometimes.
Some things are easier to start with. Others are highly complex and the resilience you need to have to go through those difficult moments, it will make the difference. And maybe the resilience supporting environment, but there’s something around how you think about your own challenges. Thing that is. And that thing can be developed.
Not everybody wants that. And, yeah, it’s no judgment there. But I would say people who sometimes struggle to share resilience in those things. They can if they want, that’s something, I believe, can be improved. Not so easily, but it can.
Host: Rob Stevenson: Learning can be convenient, but it shouldn’t be easy. If it’s easier not learning. Right?
Sacha Luthi: Yeah. Like change like change.
Host: Rob Stevenson: Yeah. To have access to information, right, to have like an e course, that’s very convenient. Yeah. There’s all these fantastically exclusive from historic perspective universities Mhmm. Whose courses you can now just watch.
Yeah. Right.
Sacha Luthi: Yeah. But it
Host: Rob Stevenson: just doesn’t make it easy. It makes it easy to consume and to get access to. But, yeah, in general, I tend to agree with you that things are more convenient now. That does that necessarily make them easier? If it’s if something’s too easy, then I know that you’re just languishing a little bit.
Yeah. Right? Yeah. I guess we are speaking, I think, from a growth bias. Right?
We are speaking with the assumption that there is this widespread desire to up level and get better across one’s entire life. And I guess not all people would hold that as a paragon of virtue, but I’ll assume that our listenership holds it as a paragon of virtue because why else would you listen to a podcast about your career and your free time. Right?
Sacha Luthi: Yeah. I would say. And sometimes yeah. And then we have to accept it. It might vary during your life.
You have you have moments in life when you’re, maybe, you know, if more grit, more drive than others. And I would say the great thing about making it convinced that the accessibility and because more inclusive, so you have more access to information, which is great. But doing a course so I I have a knowledge, but you have to move from acquiring that to actually doing something about it. And that’s sometimes a difficult piece because you expose yourself. Right?
When you try out things, this is when it becomes interesting. I think to put yourself an objective. So, like, learning a new language or across a new skill. Say, okay. In four months from now, I wanna be able to do this.
I’m gonna do a presentation on that to this audience. That can be helpful. I would say, putting yourself out there probably increase a bit likelihood or public commitment gonna do something about it. So I would say, it can vary on different phases of your life. But I would say, I hope that your audience is and this growth mindset has this grit and this drive.
Host: Rob Stevenson: Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you. And it’s important to forgive yourself when you’re not in those moments. Right?
Yeah. There’s a prescriptive approach, which is sprint rest, sprint rest. Right? So you can really develop and really have that grit and ambition and put your nose to the grindstone and then take time. A human rest and all that.
And Yeah. Hustle culture, at least in the United States, is so widespread and severe. And actually, people believe it’s like a virtue.
Sacha Luthi: What do you mean by a hustle culture?
Host: Rob Stevenson: Hustle culture, like, I worked eighty hours this week. I respond to emails at eleven PM. I have my full time job, but I’m also starting this company on the side or I built an Etsy shop, I monetized my hobby, and I launched a drop shipping website on Shopify and, like, all these other just ways to maximize your output and turn all of it into money and turn all of it into growth constantly. Maybe this is a personal issue, but to the point where when you’re not doing that, it’s like, am I falling behind? Am I running out of time?
Am I wasting my time, etcetera? And so it’s just important to have respect of on the phases that are some are growth and drive and some are rest and reverberation.
Sacha Luthi: It’s a good one. I would say that sometimes very hard on ourselves. And when I was thinking about coaching, certification, my mentor. So there’s never anything it brought you where you are. So there’s value in whatever is out there because it helps you to become the person you are today.
The question is always and is it sustainable and is it what you need for tomorrow? But I would say to give some value also to
Host: Rob Stevenson: all those elements that made you Yeah, that’s fantastic advice. Well, Sasha, we are creeping up on optimal podcast length here. This has been great. This has been, I think, a little than our typical TalkTelenomy episode because it was more about personal growth and drive, which I think is great. I think we all need this.
And so at this point, I would just say thank you so much for being here and for being yourself and being candid and sharing your experience and wisdom as I really love learning from you today.
Sacha Luthi: Yeah. Thank you also for helping me and and time flies indeed. I haven’t seen that. Yeah. It was a great moment.
Thank you for having me.
Host: Rob Stevenson: Talk Talent to Me is brought to you by Hired. Hired empowers connections by matching the world’s most innovative companies with ambitious tech and sales candidates. With Hired, candidates and companies have visibility into salary offers, competing opportunities, and job details. Hired unique offering includes customized assessments and salary bias alerts to help remove unconscious bias when hiring. By combining technology and human touch, our goal is to provide transparency in the recruiting process and empower each of our partners to employ their potential and keep their talent pipeline full.
To learn more about how we can help you find your next great hire, head to Hired.com/employers/
Editor’s note, since this podcast was recorded, Sacha has continued to grow his career, moving to Grundfos in March 2023 as VP People and Organizational Growth. Congratulations, Sacha!
