Today on Talk Talent to Me, we chat to the formidable Tatiyana Cure who has fearlessly earned her way into the position of Head of Talent Acquisition and Learning at Bank Leumi. In our conversation, we hear about Tatiyana’s inspiring approach to learning and managing imposter syndrome, the benefits of cultivating relationships with mentors, and why you shouldn’t brush over your superfans.
[0:00:06.1] RS: Welcome to Talk Talent to Me, a podcast featuring the most elite talent leaders on the frontline’s modern recruitment.
[0:00:12.8] FEMALE: We actually want to understand the themes of someone’s life, we want to understand how they make decisions. Where are they willing to take risks and what it looks like when they fail.
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[0:00:31.1] FEMALE: Once I went through the classes and the trainings got the certifications through diversity and inclusion, I still felt like something was missing.
[0:00:39.7] MALE: Talent acquisition, it’s a fantastic career, you are trusted by the organization, you get to work with the C-Suite and the security at the front desk and everybody in between and everybody knows you.
[0:00:53.0] RS: I’m your host, Rob Stevenson and you’re about to hear the best in the biz, Talk Talent to Me.
[0:01:00.2] RS: Joining us today on Talk Talent to Me is the Head of Talent Acquisition and Learning over at Bank Leumi, Tatiyana Cure. Tatiyana, welcome to you, how are you today?
[0:01:09.2] TC: I’m doing great, thanks so much for having me on the show.
[0:01:11.3] RS: Yeah, I’m so pleased to have you on because you are not merely a full-time Head of Talent, you kind of put yourself out there in a lot of different ways and I’m really excited for the folks out there to kind of hear about how you’ve done that and what that looks like and the impact and all that and we’ll get into that in a minute but first, I would just love to set some context, would you mind sharing a little bit about your background, how you came to recruiting, how you came to Bank Leumi, all that, where were you then and where are you now?
[0:01:38.7] TC: Yeah, sure. I actually studied political science in college. After college, I actually interned in Capitol Hill so I was very much engrossed into that industry. At the same time, I was actually paying for college while working in retail and so at the end of the internship, I had this offer to kind of go work in Capitol Hill or become a store manager in retail, kind of the second option, the retail option just was much more lucrative so someone facing a lot of student loans and so forth, I decided to go with that route. Throughout that process, I kind of noticed that sales actually kind of came pretty natural to me, more naturally than some other folks.
At that time, I actually met someone who joined a staffing firm which I didn’t know what that was, I didn’t know what recruiting companies were but she joined the staffing firm and it was a small staffing firm specifically focused on placing chief compliance officers and general councils and financial services and the president of the company was looking to expand and was looking to hire another recruiter.
My friend recommended like, “Hey, I know this person, she doesn’t have any recruiting background but is a really great salesperson.” I joined this company and it was like learning a foreign language. I had no idea – it’s a small company so they didn’t have any training or anything, I just got a phone book and a phone and they’re like, “Go at it, go recruit.”
I had to learn, like I said, this foreign language of Volkov rule, Dodd-Frank, Chinese wall, what are all these, right? I remember just kind of feeling completely lost and at the same time, I think probably 30 days into it, my friend had mentioned like, “Hey, I think you might be getting fired, you’re not — our boss doesn’t think you’re kind of picking that up as well as they should.”
I started to think about – I’m really motivated by proving others wrong and proving that I can do it. I started to think about, “Okay, well, if I think about it as a foreign language, what do people do when they learn a foreign language?” They start watching TV in that language, they start reading in that language, and so forth. I started to watch Bloomberg in the background as my background noise, I started to read financial news and so forth.
What ended up happening was that I started to really truly earn the trust and respect from candidates. I was sharing news to them before they actually knew themselves and I was able to talk about it very candidly and what ended up happening was that I actually started to earn – I had more billings and earned more money than a top recruiter there who happened to be the president.
I was really excited about that and was very proud about it. At the same time, I got a call from Creative Financial Staffing, which is another recruiting company specifically focused on accounting and finance and had 50 plus offices across the nation but their New York office was struggling. Their big pitch to me was like, “Hey, help us turn this office around.”
Again, it’s kind of like this theme of like, “Oh, I can’t wait. I can’t wait to do that.” I went there and you know, within the first less than a year, I won their incentive trip, which was unheard of. Usually, you would need to be with a company for five-plus years in order to even be considered for that but because of the billings that I had, this is where I ended up and even though I’m no longer there, I’m really excited that the people who I helped hire to turn that office around are still there. The office is thriving, they have won a ton of awards, I’m really excited for them there.
It was actually a pretty big move for me to consider moving to internal recruiting because I kind of enjoyed that sales component like I was saying before, it just happened naturally to me, right? Thinking about joining an internal recruiting role, I wasn’t sure if I was ready for it but again, Leumi pitched to me about, “Hey, this company has been around in the US for 65 years, we have a parent company that’s over 120 years old and you would be the first recruiter.” I’m like, “Wait a second, help me understand this, how is that possible? How is this company for 65 years old and I’m the first recruiter”?
I was really excited to come in and at the time of transformational change, hyper-growth, change management and it was in the area of really finding candidates at a time in an organization that like, “Lee who? Who is that?” It was really a great opportunity for me to challenge my skills, my sales skills in that way.
At the same time, kind of standardized that recruiting practice and then expanded into developing and other talent strategies including DI, talent development, and so forth but this is where I am now.
[0:06:51.0] RS: I noticed a little bit of a pattern there of you feeling as though you maybe weren’t quite ready or qualified to do a job but then, in three cases like you mentioned, it sounds like you have thrived.
[0:07:06.0] TC: Yeah. Thanks for figuring that out.
[0:07:08.9] RS: I guess what I’m saying is, if you haven’t have had imposter syndrome like stop, because clearly, you’re good enough. Was that part of the opportunity then feeling like it was outside of your comfort zone?
[0:07:19.7] TC: Yeah, I mean, I think for me, if my mentality is if it’s comfortable, then it’s time to move on, right? Or, I’m not challenging myself. If I don’t go to bed exhausted, like mentally drained, if I still have energy to burn, then I feel like I need to do something else.
Yeah, it’s definitely a pattern and a little bit to your point, it is imposter syndrome and I think that I’ve gotten comfortable in that space of feeling like an imposter. “You know what? It’s okay.” It’s okay to feel uncomfortable, it’s okay to feel like an imposter, as long as I’m willing to go out there and learn what I don’t know, question the things that I do know, and kind of test them in a different way.
One thing that could have worked with one company or one area could not work in another area, right? It’s okay to try and it’s okay to say, “You know what? I tried, it didn’t work, let’s try again in a different way” right? As long as I’m willing to put in the work, it’s okay to feel like an imposter.
[0:08:24.3] RS: Yeah, the alternative to feeling imposter syndrome would be complacency, right? If you were just 100% comfortable with every task that came your way, that means you’ve probably done it before, which means you’re not growing, right?
[0:08:37.3] TC: That’s right.
[0:08:38.2] RS: I can see why you have learning appended onto your title because I really love the way you describe how you approached your own literacy in this industry with the same way as you approach literacy in a foreign language, right? Let it be on the background, let it be at the content that I consume, let me find a recruiting pen pal, whatever it is.
I think most people know how to up-level themselves in an area, right? If you’ve played a sport before or if you’ve ever achieved mastery or even competence at anything, you know what it takes to become good at something and I don’t often see people pulling that rigor at their career because you do it all day for eight hours. I guess you’re meant to think that you are going to get better just by virtue of doing it every day but that’s not the case in other things, right?
You don’t just get better at basketball by playing in the end game, you have all of this training that occurs, every single day and you are very critical about identifying your weaknesses and fixing them, whatever. Is that kind of your approach to learning too? Do you think that it is necessary to take on extracurricular activities in order to really excel?
[0:09:51.5] TC: Yeah, I think that anything that you go through, it’s meant to teach you something, right? There’s a lesson in everything. As an example, I decided, one of my best friends is a yoga instructor and she’s really into meditation and anything that’s in that realm. I always kind of said, “You know, I don’t have time for this, I don’t have the mental capacity to do this.”
I have like a hundred Google tabs opened, I can’t close any of them in my head. I started to really challenge myself and I’m going to say, “You know what? Why? If it’s hard, then it’s meant for me to do it, it’s meant for me to challenge myself.” There’s a lesson in there as well, right? You can’t control everything, you’re not going to be good at everything the first time around, just keep trying.
Yes, it is my mentality to everything and I think that anything that is put in my way, I look at as an opportunity to learn. My mentor kind of always said, “Look, everything that’s put in your path is meant to be either, there’s a student or a teacher in every situation.” You’re either the student or the teacher and sometimes both, frankly, right?
Sometimes, it’s just meant to be put a kind of a mirror in front of you and say, “Well, why is that in front of me right now? Why am I making this decision? Why am I resistant to this, why do I need to – why do I feel like I need to control this situation, how can I let go more?” Yes, that is definitely that mentality there for learning.
[0:11:27.5] RS: Can we talk about your mentor?
[0:11:29.0] TC: Sure.
[0:11:30.6] RS: How did you identify them as such and what do you get out of that relationship?
[0:11:34.3] TC: Yeah, I have a ton of mentors but the first person who comes to mind is Amy Sheldon. She is an executive coach and at one point, the way I came across her was, I was thinking about – this was a couple of years ago and I was thinking about what do I want to do next in my career, you know? This was before I became Head of Learning but I kind of sat down and said, “Well, what do I want to do next?”
I went on LinkedIn and I typed in some job titles, some people that I’ve kind of looked up to. I saw Amy Sheldon where she was in sales and then she grew her career in HR and I noticed that she actually got her coaching certification through IPAC and she started her own business as well, right?
I was like, “Wait a second, that’s what I want to be when I grow up.” I just sent her a message and I said, “Hey, I want to talk, I want to understand your background, I want to understand why you made the decision that you made in your career and I want to understand why you chose IPAC for your coaching certification when there are so many other programs out there. I want to understand how you started your own business” and so forth.
A conversation that was meant to last, maybe a half-hour, ended up lasting for two hours and then we started to have a coaching relationship, and then, when that coaching relationship ended, she truly became my mentor. When I – for example, when I wrote my first book, the first person I shared it was with her because I knew that she would give it to me straight. She would tell me the true feedback and she questions me. She pushes me in every which way in a really gentle and a nice coaching manner where it’s like, “Hey, have you thought about it differently? What’s a different way to look about this? Is there an alternative to this?”
Because she’s asked me that so many times, I think it became my nature to just always kind of see, “Well, what’s another perspective here?”
[0:13:42.4] RS: It’s interesting that you sort of reached out cold because when I think of who would I pick as my mentor, I’m thinking of personal relationships like previous bosses I’ve had or as other folks in my industry who I’ve sort of rubbed shoulders with a little bit that I could ask and reach out to and be like, “Hey, can we talk in a more regular basis, can we become official?”
I love that you just reached out cold and I think people – it’s been my experience, at least prospecting for podcasts, you’d be surprised that they’ll get back to you, right? If you are gracious with their time and deliberate and polite. I love that. What would you say has been the fruition of having the mentor in that way?
[0:14:17.3] TC: Well, I really appreciate that you said like, “Hey, when I think about mentors, I think about who do I rub shoulders with” and that’s what I say, I have so many. I think another person who I really would say is the biggest mentor and I’ve told her that many times is actually my current boss.
This is someone and I was like, look like at one point, we may not work together anymore but I’ll always consider you my mentor. There’s definitely, it depends on the situation where you need to have that mentor and why and you need to be willing to give into that relationship just as much, right?
The benefit of having mentors and having that network of people who you can reach out to is so many, right? One is, you already know that they’re willing to help, they’re going to give you feedback, and sometimes it’s human nature to take feedback and start to think about, “Well, let me explain my story and let me defend my side” and so forth. Mentors, they’re going to give you tough feedback because they want to see you grow, period, right?
Another mentor I have is Jenny Lisk who helped me quite a bit with publishing my first book and she gave me some really tough feedback. Like, “Hey, on your cover and this font is not great, this title is not good, this picture is not good” but she was the only person who was willing to say that out loud. Some people were like, “Hey, I don’t want to hurt your feelings” so forth, so forth right? This is a mentor’s nature is to want to help you grow. The major benefit there is to continue to grow.
[0:15:56.7] RS: It’s so important, I had an old boss who recommended we all make a personal board of directors which is basically like, “Can you get a handful of people who are just sort of like advisors in every aspect of your life to make it a little less capitalist centric?” I’m thinking of it in terms of your personal/professional entourage.
Who are the people around you in your life that are helping making you better, right? It’s everything from an old boss you had who you can go to for advice to like your personal trainer or your therapist or who are all these individuals that you can kind of rely on.
I think that’s super important just because the alternative is just sort of making it up as you go along and googling something and taking advice from Quora and Yahoo Answers and I mean, I don’t know who out there is taking personal advice from Yahoo Answers but anyway, my point is, I think this is just really crucial to cultivate relationships in your life that are deliberately designed to help you improve in areas where you want to excel.
[0:16:56.6] TC: Yeah, I would totally agree. There was another, I forget who said it but it stuck with me, is to develop your super fans and sometimes, these super fans, right? You know that they’re going to buy whatever you’re selling. They’re going to support you in whatever your endeavor is and sometimes we’re so cautious to engage them and when we’re building out anything, when we’re starting a podcast like, “Okay, I know my parents are going to listen to it.”
When we’re starting a blog post, I know my best friend is going to read it but we’re so cautious from it but why? They’re your super fans, they’re going to forward it to other people who may benefit from it, right? Yeah, they’re supporting you but they also keep you in the back of your mind, of their minds to forward it to other folks.
[0:17:48.0] RS: This is all part and parcel with your extracurriculars, your own extracurriculars Tatiyana because you are not merely the Head of Talent like I said earlier, you also publish quite a bit, right? You have this new book coming out, you are a very elusive blogger, we’ll get into the book in a minute but I’m just curious, you know there’s that meme. I think it’s like a cat holding a newspaper and it’s like, “I should buy a boat” you know what I’m talking about?
Maybe it is Kermit the frog, I can’t remember but I feel like that’s recruiters with content, they’re like, “I should start a blog” or like, “I should post more on LinkedIn” or whatever. You have done it, right? I’m excited to talk to someone who is kind of representing the success of doing that. I guess first of all, how do you make time and prioritize it?
Because you got roles to fill, you got a job to do, and probably the last thing you want to do after a long day of setting interview policy and whatever else is go and then pour more energy into that and more thought and creativity into the thing you use to for eight hours. How do you go about prioritizing this and making time to publish?
[0:18:48.8] TC: Yes, so in terms of making time, right? You need to, just like with anything, just like going to the gym, just like anything that you want to accomplish, you need to set time aside, right? I did block time on my calendar for an hour every day to write or to develop content. However, it wasn’t necessarily something that’s an added chore for me, right? I think it would be different if I was writing about something completely outside of my day-to-day work, right?
If I was writing about puppies, I would have to go and research puppies, right? But when I am writing about things that it’s already part of what I do, it doesn’t require much effort. I became really, really good at keeping track of all ideas and all the things that I learned through Trello. I never run out of content, I never run out of topics because I just write it down whenever things come up and when I say things come up, is through conversations.
I remember one time I told my boss, “As a recruiter, I feel like I’m not doing my job well enough if I am not always talking to someone” whether it’s on the phone, whether it be video, whether it be in person, whatever, as long as I am talking to someone I feel like I am being productive. Well, that’s the time to create ideas, right? To create topics because it is just another kind of that saying, you know, feed two birds with one seed, is my own way of saying that saying but this is the way, right?
I am still having those same discussions, I am still having those same conversations. It’s just there’s this added mission of discovering topics that I want to talk about. Now, what’s really cool is that I’m really terrible, I hate networking. I’m really terrible at superficial networking where you’re just exchanging business cards. I don’t like small talk like nothing, so this allowed me, having this in the back of my mind of like, “Here’s this topic that I’m curious about. Here is this topic that I’m writing about and I want to learn more about it.”
It really kind of provided an opportunity to have deeper more meaningful connections with people completely out of nowhere. I remember one time I reached out to the Head of Talent Acquisition at Southwest Airlines, Greg Muccio. I was like, “No way would he respond back to me” even though I am really curious about their talent acquisition and hiring practices, there is just absolutely no way that he would reach back out to me.
You would be surprised how many people are willing to have conversations and brainstorm and share ideas when that pressure of networking is removed. Not only did he talk to me, he then introduced me to his entire team and so I thought, “Okay, well this was a fluke” but it continued to happen every time. I can give you tons and tons of examples. I didn’t find it to be work, I found it as something that I happened to be passionate about.
It happened to be something that I want to continue to learn, like how else would I know what else is going on in the industry other than following news, right? Well, there is another way or an added approach. Well, let me talk to other people who do this for a living so I found time. I made time and it didn’t feel like a chore at all.
[0:22:19.0] RS: That makes all the sense in the world and like we said earlier, as long as you reach out politely and thoughtfully, right? It’s not in a turn like it is not stuck email, it is not just like a very brazenly swagless networking approach. You will connect with folks and yeah, everything you said about prioritizing makes sense too. There is a productivity quote that’s like, it’s not real until it’s on the calendar, right?
You have to invest time into something or you will keep pressing snooze, you’ll keep like, “Oh I’ll do that some other time” right? Once something is on the calendar then you can actually be assured that something you care about. What has been sort of the outcome? I mean, you got to speak with the brass at Southwest but you are putting all this material out there, is that kind of attracting the sort of conversations you’re hoping it would?
[0:23:03.4] TC: Well, there is a couple like kind of obvious outcomes, right? There’s credibility and visibility, right? I remember as a recruiter, what I had found is that it’s about being at the forefront of people’s minds of the individuals you’re hoping to connect with at the right time. We got really used to the no like, “No, I am not interested” but that means “not now”, not “not ever”, right? Being in front of people through creating this content, like you said, a lot of recruiters are thinking like, “I should post more, I should blog more” what have you.
Yeah, if you do, then you have this kind of really less very passive approach of being in front of people’s minds versus saying like, “Hey, remember me? Are you ready yet?” you know? Now, you just pop up in their feed, you have an opportunity to follow up with them as you’re creating content, what have you to say like, “Hey, I’d love to get your input in this” and again, it’s a much more passive approach where people actually want to talk to you and you’re in the front of their mind.
Yeah, I absolutely got a lot out of it and what I also have found especially during the pandemic, it provided this additional outlet to focus on something else other than the news about COVID that we have been following for two years, right? I’m like, “Yeah, that’s cool but what’s going on in the hiring world?” There is a ton of benefit of having this outlet there.
[0:24:35.8] RS: Yeah, if you subscribe to the recruiters or a network effect sort of philosophy that being able to cultivate lots of relationships at once so that you are top of mind when someone comes to market then of course, then you need to stay top of mind, so that makes all the sense in the world to me. Can we talk about your new book?
[0:24:54.7] TC: Sure.
[0:24:55.4] RS: It’s all about up-leveling managers, is that right?
[0:24:59.7] TC: Yeah, so it’s called Hire to Win: Manager’s Practical Guide for Attracting and Interviewing Top Talent. Yeah, it’s totally to help managers.
[0:25:09.3] RS: What kind of inspired you to write this? Were you seeing sort of a need amongst managers for this kind of information? Let’s just beat up the managers that you work with and [inaudible 0:25:18.2]
[0:25:20.2] TC: No worries. Yeah, well, so there is a couple of things that I saw happening. One was that even before the pandemic happened, a lot of managers were just so used to doing or hiring in the way that they’re used to, right? It was unheard of to hire someone without meeting them in person and trusting your gut in having that chemistry with them. Well now, all of a sudden, anything that we try to help and change it, with the pandemic initially all hiring kind of stopped.
Everything that we tried to do in the industry, it halted a little bit, right? Now, all of a sudden, you know, we are approaching of like massive hiring across all industries and so forth and those same practices that were utilized in the past absolutely no longer work and managers may not be prepared like, “What do you mean you’re not chasing just a bigger paycheck? What do you mean?” What do you mean you’re going to ghost me as a candidate?
What do you mean you’re going to turn down my offer, right? They are just not prepared to interview differently, to hire differently and so I just wanted to provide this tool for them to reference. It’s really just a practical guide that if you were going to be your own best recruiter, where can you turn to at the time of need? This was kind of the idea behind it just to help managers.
[0:26:59.7] RS: What are some of the ways that they can up level? Because I am sure lots of recruiters are facing this amongst their managing teams. Are these individuals equipped to hire only in a remote capacity or in a remote-first capacity? What about, we’re kind of experiencing this whole new world and new rules about how to bring a team together, have team bonding, have effective teams we have never met in person, all of that. What are some of the ways that managers can up-level?
[0:27:27.7] TC: Yeah, I think the number one thing that I have seen be is that’s a human component, right? It’s — changing jobs and starting a new job is one of the most stressful life events that anyone can go through alongside of getting married or getting a divorce, having a baby, going through a death, moving or buying a house but somehow, hiring became so transactional that we forgot that there is a human component to it, right?
We have a checklist of things that we’re looking for in a job description and if you don’t have that, you’re automatically disqualified and ghosted a lot of times, right? A candidate may be going through putting in their efforts and time of researching the company, applying through their vehicles and they may never hear back, right? It’s the same thing when they invest time to interview, at the end they may just get this super generic email like, “Sorry, we went forward with someone who is more qualified.”
I think the number one thing that managers can do is just remembering that there is a person on the other side. If I was in that position, how would I want to be treated, and having that as a reminder, as kind of a thread moving forward, you can start adjusting how you act, right? For example, when you onboard someone and they are remote, they can’t turn to the left, they can’t turn to the right to say like, “Hey, how does this manager like to communicate?”
Do they like emails? Do they like phone calls? Do they like in person? Do they like all the details? Do they want an executive summary? They don’t do that, so — they can’t do that while working at home. How can we make sure that there is a mutual fit, short-term and long-term that this makes sense for both parties and it is not something that we figure out 90 days into the job and they were like, “Oh, I wouldn’t have made the move” or “I wouldn’t have hired this person.”
How can we do that from the beginning from having those conversations? It’s the same thing if we provide that feedback during the interview process like, “Hey, I noticed that you’re really strong at this but you have a developmental opportunity in that.” Well, how do we then when we onboard this person talk about that openly? Let me help you develop that, right? How do we then talk about – how do we do onboarding that’s beyond, “Okay, let’s go over benefits and any other standard HR practices. How do we actually integrate you into the team?”
I always kind of think about the movie, Meet the Parents, where it’s like the circle of trust and you’re like outside of the circle, right? Well, that’s a new hire. How do you bring them into the circle, right? When it’s remote, it’s harder and then managers, you know, kind of rely like to your point of whether it’s training or having any sort of team bonding activities that we heavily rely on this one approach.
Let us do virtual happy hours, like that is our approach of integrating new hires. Well, does that actually work? I don’t know about you but every time I’m in one of those happy hours, it’s like either everyone talks at the same time or it’s complete silence, right?
[0:30:47.8] RS: It’s so weird, yeah, because you can only talk as a group, right? If your team goes out to a real-life in-person happy hour, there is a million conversations going on, right? Which is great, which is how people get to know each other but it’s like a performance, is what it is, right? It’s like if I want to say something, if I want to chime in on this group, I have to say it to all 12 people at once.
Some people really like that, you know? Some people have made a career out of it but a lot of people don’t. A lot of people aren’t that way and so you leave those people out and does bonding happen or just one person just get to pat themself on the back and say, “Wow, I really was funny in that meeting.”
[0:31:25.9] TC: That’s right, yeah. I just think we just need to question ourselves how do we do these things in a different way. There is actually – I recently read a book by Adam Grant, Think Again, which is a fantastic book by the way but I remember liking this one example that he did where there is a history teacher that used an outdated old history textbook and said, “There’s mistakes here, go and find them.”
Then it made the students go out and they had to research, they had to learn on their own and then come back to the class and present their ideas. Now, very different versus the teacher standing in the front and lecturing them and making them memorize facts and making them memorize history, right? They actually had to go out and find history and talk about what they learned, right?
It’s a very different approach and I think there’s an opportunity within talent strategies, onboarding, team building, training, and so forth where we say like, “I know this is what we used to do in the past but does it work? Does this still work? Can we test it in a different way?”
[0:32:37.1] RS: I love that. What a fantastic way to teach, right?
[0:32:40.0] TC: Yeah.
[0:32:40.5] RS: To just say, “Hey, this book that I am meant to be teaching you is wrong and bad. Let’s find out why” and I’m sure they learned way more than they would just you know, even a book that was accurate, right?
[0:32:50.6] TC: Right.
[0:32:51.9] RS: Well, hey, we are creeping up on optimal podcast length here Tatiyana but I don’t want to let you go without people knowing where they can find you. First of all, if they are having this similar experience with managers on their team, where can people find the book?
[0:33:03.5] TC: Yes, so you can get it on Amazon. There is a paperback and an audiobook as well and it’s Hire to Win. That is where you can find it on Amazon.
[0:33:14.1] RS: Amazing, so we’ll put a link to it in the show description as well so folks can find it or go out there and do your little Googling folks, you know how to find things in the year of our Lord 2022.
[0:33:26.1] TC: That’s right.
[0:33:26.7] RS: Tatiyana, is there anything you want to offer folks, any other plugs you want to make before we wind down here?
[0:33:31.7] TC: Yeah, I mean I think, you know, kind of making a full circle to where we started about feeling uncomfortable, the reason why I wrote this book is because I wanted to really push myself and learn something completely new and different outside of my day-to-day work so I had to learn the science of publishing a book, not that I am urging anyone to publish a book unless they really want to but I do urge them to go out and do something completely different.
Go out and do a TikTok video and whatever it is, right? Do a podcast, whatever it is but push yourself in a different way so it just shakes up your world a little bit.
[0:34:07.8] RS: I love that. Tatiyana, this has been great chatting with you today. Thank you so much for being here and sharing with our audience.
[0:34:12.1] TC: Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
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